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pink
18-06-2012, 22:58
does anyone use a portable washing machine?

Funky Farmer
18-06-2012, 23:01
Yes It's called Da Missis :lol-061:

pink
18-06-2012, 23:05
lol,bet she runs on more than 12v..:D

channa
18-06-2012, 23:06
Washing clothes is the biggest problem I find in a motorhome then you got to dry them and launderettes aren't cheap.

Kit is cheaper to kit out in a charity shop at 2 quid for jeans .50 p a t shirt over a week than time and effort at a launderette and cost.

After a week you have sisters
Channa

pink
18-06-2012, 23:10
Washing clothes is the biggest problem I find in a motorhome then you got to dry them and launderettes aren't cheap.

Kit is cheaper to kit out in a charity shop at 2 quid for jeans .50 p a t shirt over a week than time and effort at a launderette and cost.

After a week you have sisters
Channa

thats not a bad idea! cant do that with my uniform though..

Funky Farmer
18-06-2012, 23:12
lol,bet she runs on more than 12v..:D
She will certainly be sparking if she reads this!!!! Yikes!!

pink
18-06-2012, 23:16
She will certainly be sparking if she reads this!!!! Yikes!!

and you,ll be in the dog house!!:lol-053

n brown
18-06-2012, 23:21
of course this is an important subject,we had 4 kids in the van but on the plus side it was hot where we went so less clothes.we had a wind the handle plastic pressure washer which worked well but a pain to use. we also did a lot of washing clothes in rivers,and that works well.every country has laundries,but i'll warn you.when my sister took her washing to one in spain,the guy rummaged through and pulled out all her dirty knickers and said,we don't do these.6161 or if your van's big enough theres this with a genny big enough to run it

pink
18-06-2012, 23:31
omg,your poor sister,that must have been awkward!! Washer and gen,brill!! I ,ve been looking at the mini portable machines but could do with a bit of feedback on their performance before i go and buy one...

UFO
18-06-2012, 23:39
We were in Portugal earlier this year, met Ray + wife with big MH towing a car, in the morning they moved to the top of the car park and when we went to have a chat heard a genny which was powering a small washing machine standing on a folding table, they even had a rotary dryer. They had all the mod cons but you would need a reasonable sized van to fit it all in.

scampa
19-06-2012, 01:39
I haven't used a portable washing machine myself, but if you have a look at them on sites like Amazon etc, you can read the feedback from buyers to see what they think of them....

Mini Portable Washing Machine-Wash-n-Spin Timer-889/658: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Washing-Machine-Wash-n-Spin-Timer-889-658/dp/B004L5GJVY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1340069620&sr=8-2)

David & Ann
19-06-2012, 04:21
Yes It's called Da Missis :lol-061:

I back up Jonas. "It's called the Mrs" Here is the proof.☺☺☺

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff249/david42ann/Europe%202011/NeufchatelSwitzerland2-1.jpg

kimbowbill
19-06-2012, 06:46
Are you planning to live in your van Lorraine? i get that if you are, but if its just for pleasure then i would say its a waste of a precious resource, water and lecky :banana:

ricc
19-06-2012, 06:59
reduce the problem by wearing less clothes.... go naturist and virtually eliminate it.

n brown
19-06-2012, 07:43
reduce the problem by wearing less clothes.... go naturist and virtually eliminate it.

men eh?that's all they think about.i should know!

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 08:39
When I'm on the road I tend to wear what I was wearing in the pub the other night, lightweight bush kit, which is either non-iron, or minimum iron and easy to wash and dry. I also carry a smart shirt and trousers in case I need them. Somebody on one of the forums that they do their washing using one of the blue plastic drums, filled with washing powder, water and their dirty washing. They lash the drum to their bike rack and the movement of the vehicle does their washing, so they only need to rinse and dry at the other end.

Your situation is slightly different as you are going to be on site a lot, but before buying a generator I would look at posts about these on here, as some are very noisy and you will get complaints. I think Maplins do a portable washing machine for caravans etc. You could do what a friend who lives in a static caravan does and turn up with washing powder, fabric conditioner and dirty washing when you visit friends.

PS, after a week on here you should know better than to mention that you wear uniform...don't feed their fantasies or you could cause a lot of coronaries. x

afl777
19-06-2012, 08:55
I know this is in the house and not on the road, and my spinner is still working.....but my washer packed up a few weeks ago. Small space and a special size expensive auto that i can no longer afford the hundreds to replace, so the local domestics place is building me up a twintub, old metal one with all new parts....can't wait :)

But now whites go in a bucket of hot water and powder and soak over night with just a few agitations with the bathbrush handle. My whites haven't been so clean for a long time.

Sheets lie soaking in the bath.

Its easy till I get to the big stuff...my mate washed my big jacket for me last week.

I can see it would work for you, but using a mix of different ways.

Smalls and lightweight easy to dry maybe the bucket or bowl to soak them, under the van overnight so the hot water doesn't cause condensation in the van. Maybe an awning line could be used for drying them. Big things to a laundrette and the laundrette during the winter so you haven't got damp clothes going mouldy in the van.

Ange

suej
19-06-2012, 08:58
We've met a few people who recommend the Wonderwash and others who swear by their old posstick and large buckets. What does seem to be more useful than a washer though is a small spin drier as your hands soon get sore doing alot of wringing out

Sue:)

Funky Farmer
19-06-2012, 08:59
I saw a programme on tele where people made clothes out of bin bags.
Just sayin'

PS Just had an excellent idea .... Buy a small cement mixer They are really cheap

donkey too
19-06-2012, 09:11
years ago I bought an old posser in a jumble sale and cut the handle down so that it stowed away easily in my camper. It was the wooden stool type. did a great job for several years. But really needed a proper dolly tub to get the clothes really clean and make the job easier. The old fashioned dolly tub had vertical ridges all round the sides and this is what caused the water to agitate properly. Be nice if we could buy a mini dolly tub and a fold away posser.
Another way of washing clothes in the wild is to copy the natives in africa and India. and do your washing in a stream with a couple of nice big rocks to bang the clothes on. Drying has always been a problem in UK as we don't want to have washing hanging around the outside of the van making it look like a ***** camp.

Now what was being said about uniforms? anyone into nurses?:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:

BambiOwner
19-06-2012, 09:17
[QUOTE=channa;200571]Washing clothes is the biggest problem I find in a motorhome then you got to dry them and launderettes aren't cheap.

Kit is cheaper to kit out in a charity shop at 2 quid for jeans .50 p a t shirt over a week than time and effort at a launderette and cost.

After a week you have sisters
Channa[/QUOTE

Blimey what charity shops do you use? here in Swindon it is nearly always cheaper to buy cloths from Tesco or Asda than it is from a charity shop

David & Ann
19-06-2012, 10:33
We are always around 3/4 months on the road. I carry 3 of everything. One on me, one in the wash, one in the copboard ready to wear. The Mrs has 4 times more of what I carry. Washing line from one end of awning post to the other. Dry in less than an hour.

channa
19-06-2012, 10:40
Another solution for socks and smalls etc is a babys nappy bucket or similar .with a lid...chuck in yer clothes, set. Of on your travels and the driving agitates the water like a washing machine....on stopping rinse and dry.

Channa

Apache Two
19-06-2012, 10:50
I use the uni laundry it's cheap and open 24/7..365 days
Washed and tumble dried all for 3.00
You won't beat that....:drive::wacko::banana:

pink
19-06-2012, 10:58
Are you planning to live in your van Lorraine? i get that if you are, but if its just for pleasure then i would say its a waste of a precious resource, water and lecky :banana:

yes i am Jen..have found a site to be on for part of the week,but is only small and has no laundry room.(ideal spot for work though)..also have good friends and family but i dont want to be imposing on them too much..have also found a laundrette not too far away but its in an area well known for having things go walkabout..

Barbt
19-06-2012, 10:58
We use a hand operated machine - we bought it several years ago in a camping shop. Basically it's a drum with a handle - doesn't take too much at a time but it works, that's that main thing!

pink
19-06-2012, 11:10
wow!! some great ideas there..thankyou!!! ...and re the uniform..nothing to get excited about..its a horrible green,cross between a paramedics and a somerfield cashiers.in fact i often get asked to point out where things are when i go shopping after work, good fun when i point them in the opposite direction:)..but i do have a good supply of latex gloves i use for work lol..could use them for wringing!

pink
19-06-2012, 11:15
When I'm on the road I tend to wear what I was wearing in the pub the other night, lightweight bush kit, which is either non-iron, or minimum iron and easy to wash and dry. I also carry a smart shirt and trousers in case I need them. Somebody on one of the forums that they do their washing using one of the blue plastic drums, filled with washing powder, water and their dirty washing. They lash the drum to their bike rack and the movement of the vehicle does their washing, so they only need to rinse and dry at the other end.

Your situation is slightly different as you are going to be on site a lot, but before buying a generator I would look at posts about these on here, as some are very noisy and you will get complaints. I think Maplins do a portable washing machine for caravans etc. You could do what a friend who lives in a static caravan does and turn up with washing powder, fabric conditioner and dirty washing when you visit friends.

PS, after a week on here you should know better than to mention that you wear uniform...don't feed their fantasies or you could cause a lot of coronaries. x

brill idea, i like that!..think i,ve put folk right re the uniform..i did mention latex gloves though..might have jumped out of the frying pan...:raofl:

pink
19-06-2012, 11:19
I use the uni laundry it's cheap and open 24/7..365 days
Washed and tumble dried all for 3.00
You won't beat that....:drive::wacko::banana:

can i borrow your student card?/?:)

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 11:35
Especially in deserts, hanging clothes outside freshens them up and the ultra violet light gets rid of the bacteria which cause smells.

channa
19-06-2012, 11:36
[QUOTE=channa;200571]Washing clothes is the biggest problem I find in a motorhome then you got to dry them and launderettes aren't cheap.

Kit is cheaper to kit out in a charity shop at 2 quid for jeans .50 p a t shirt over a week than time and effort at a launderette and cost.

After a week you have sisters
Channa[/QUOTE

Blimey what charity shops do you use? here in Swindon it is nearly always cheaper to buy cloths from Tesco or Asda than it is from a charity shop

Sally army Inverness...tends to be cheapest...

Channa

Bigpeetee
19-06-2012, 12:20
Bloke that used to work for me lived on a leaky, rotten hulk of a boat.

We ended up washing his stuff for him so that the smell didn't upset the customers!!.

Thing was, he was good at what he did!!

donkey too
19-06-2012, 12:23
wow!! Some great ideas there..thankyou!!! ...and re the uniform..nothing to get excited about..its a horrible green,cross between a paramedics and a somerfield cashiers.in fact i often get asked to point out where things are when i go shopping after work, good fun when i point them in the opposite direction:)..but i do have a good supply of latex gloves i use for work lol..could use them for wringing!

corrrr!

donkey too
19-06-2012, 12:29
Afraid the green would put me off. My ex is a paramedic.

she did have a sense of humour though. I mean she had to have to marry me. but one night I rang her from the pub and asked if she would get her mate to drop her off so that she could drive me home as I had the car in the pub car park. an hour later they turned up with blues and twos and came into the pub with a stretcher to pick me up. :lol-053:

donkey too
19-06-2012, 12:33
try some of these;
camp washing machine | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=camp+washing+machine&_sacat=See-All-Categories)

pink
19-06-2012, 12:50
:lol-049::lol-049:
Afraid the green would put me off. My ex is a paramedic.

she did have a sense of humour though. I mean she had to have to marry me. but one night I rang her from the pub and asked if she would get her mate to drop her off so that she could drive me home as I had the car in the pub car park. an hour later they turned up with blues and twos and came into the pub with a stretcher to pick me up. :lol-053:


:lol-053::lol-053::lol-049:

kangooroo
19-06-2012, 13:19
An alternative approach - wear wicking outdoorsy gear which wicks away sweat, doesn't smell, is easy to wash, will dry within the hour, doesn't need ironing and doesn't crease. Icebreaker gear is also good - you can wear it for a few weeks with no smell and still feels (relatively) fresh!

Funky Farmer
19-06-2012, 15:11
try some of these;
camp washing machine | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=camp+washing+machine&_sacat=See-All-Categories)

Yikes!!!! I couldn't even get my smalls in that!:banana:

vwalan
19-06-2012, 15:56
hi .for the past few years i have used a small washing machine bought in spain .and a mangle . i got that from my dad ,think it came from my gran. works great. now i have a twintub . not actually used it yet .but m,y mate as had one for about 5 years . the washing part is smll but works for sheets one at a time. the spinner is magic . we use the mangle and then spin .still gets some water out. 6163
hopefully heres one of the washing machine .its 240v and i run it through an inverter. but there are a few twintubs on ebay .and single tub washing machines are available here now . for a mangle ebay again very often as them.

pink
19-06-2012, 16:58
Yikes!!!! I couldn't even get my smalls in that!:banana:

blimey!! how big are your smalls then???;)

pink
19-06-2012, 17:01
hi .for the past few years i have used a small washing machine bought in spain .and a mangle . i got that from my dad ,think it came from my gran. works great. now i have a twintub . not actually used it yet .but m,y mate as had one for about 5 years . the washing part is smll but works for sheets one at a time. the spinner is magic . we use the mangle and then spin .still gets some water out. 6163
hopefully heres one of the washing machine .its 240v and i run it through an inverter. but there are a few twintubs on ebay .and single tub washing machines are available here now . for a mangle ebay again very often as them.


Hi, have seen the tabletop twintubs on ebay, very tempted..

Jojo
19-06-2012, 17:14
Another solution for socks and smalls etc is a babys nappy bucket or similar .with a lid...chuck in yer clothes, set. Of on your travels and the driving agitates the water like a washing machine....on stopping rinse and dry.
Channa
That's what my family did in a home-made van for a year when I was a kid... the agitation worked a treat. I imagine doing a wash for a couple of hours, then a couple of rinses, then hanging it up in the WC until parking, then giving it a bit of time in daylight. Maybe I'm dreaming! But a mangle sounds a good idea...

antiquesam
19-06-2012, 17:31
We are just on the final lap of an 8 week run around the UK and made a point of stopping at a CC site every 10 to 14 days to use their laundry room, 3 for washing and 1.40 for a dryer, 18.00 to stop (but clean hot showers and all the bits), but if we arrived by about 2 o'clock we can have the wash done,dried and ironed in 2 hours with the help of a travel iron and an IKEA table top ironing board. How domesticated am I?

vwalan
19-06-2012, 17:41
hi pink . i have a sunncamp twintub now .hope its good .got given it . my mate as the blue coloured twintub .done some work .it washed for ten of us one year in maroc .
we never use sites and certainly wouldnt pay 18 quid a night . we spend about 6 months normally in winter travelling spain portugal and maroc .yes we ysed to hand wash but its far easyier with the machines .you do need solar and batteries .you could use ehu .but as we never use sites relie on the sun to power the toys . they arent as good as a real washing machine but cope well.

Maria
19-06-2012, 17:44
www.thenaturalstore.co.uk/...pedal-powered...spin-dryer/44126

I bought this washing machine to do the small stuff the main reasons being that it does not use electric and has a spinner. I have also bought an eco ball as washing does not need to be rinsed like when you use powder.

You can also get a portable plastic twin tub but it is still small and it does need electric. I had one and kept getting a mild shock from it so I got this one - less to go wrong.

I hope it helps

kernowprickles
19-06-2012, 19:16
Hi Pink,
We have a wonderwasher which works like a butterchurn, and I use a salad spinner for a mini-spin drier. However, that only really copes with the smaller stuff. I've never used the wonderwasher very much, as Himself moans about the room it takes up, so most of the time we end up doing our washing on a C&CC campsite! It's quite energetic, doing the wonderwasher & the salad spinner, hopefully does wonders for the figure?? (Alas, NOT in my case!!)

Funky Farmer
19-06-2012, 19:24
blimey!! how big are your smalls then???;)

Hpw very dare you ask a lad of tender years such a question? I feel quite corrupted now!:baby:

pink
19-06-2012, 19:25
hi pink . i have a sunncamp twintub now .hope its good .got given it . my mate as the blue coloured twintub .done some work .it washed for ten of us one year in maroc .
we never use sites and certainly wouldnt pay 18 quid a night . we spend about 6 months normally in winter travelling spain portugal and maroc .yes we ysed to hand wash but its far easyier with the machines .you do need solar and batteries .you could use ehu .but as we never use sites relie on the sun to power the toys . they arent as good as a real washing machine but cope well.

hi,have been reading the reviews for those on amazon, they do have good reviews!..

pink
19-06-2012, 19:31
Hi Pink,
We have a wonderwasher which works like a butterchurn, and I use a salad spinner for a mini-spin drier. However, that only really copes with the smaller stuff. I've never used the wonderwasher very much, as Himself moans about the room it takes up, so most of the time we end up doing our washing on a C&CC campsite! It's quite energetic, doing the wonderwasher & the salad spinner, hopefully does wonders for the figure?? (Alas, NOT in my case!!)

lol, thats ingenious!!..you could even invest in a few salad spinners,charge a pound a go,put some music on and invite half the campsite for zumba,(CUcumber) sessions!!lol..:)

jennyp19
19-06-2012, 19:33
If you use the Eco Egg washing things ( Ecoegg Alternate to Washing Detergents 210 Wash: Amazon.co.uk: Grocery (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecoegg-Alternate-Washing-Detergents-Wash/dp/B0069ROPVS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1340134310&sr=8-2) you don't need as much water to rinse clothes as with soap powder. Just rub any stains with soap before you wash them.

pink
19-06-2012, 19:39
www.thenaturalstore.co.uk/...pedal-powered...spin-dryer/44126

I bought this washing machine to do the small stuff the main reasons being that it does not use electric and has a spinner. I have also bought an eco ball as washing does not need to be rinsed like when you use powder.

You can also get a portable plastic twin tub but it is still small and it does need electric. I had one and kept getting a mild shock from it so I got this one - less to go wrong.

I hope it helps

thats brilliant!!..i never realised there was so much choice around for campers! thankyou

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 19:41
... your dirty washing would attract so much attention. You could always sell your worn knickers to pervs on EBAY and use the money to pay somebody to wash the rest:D

scenictraveller
19-06-2012, 19:50
just wear combats camo ones you cant see the dirt then and yer smalls just turn them outside in.:ninja:
few years ago our club did a weeks fishing trip on the west coast of scotland,on the last day we decided to head to fortbill
for a tescos breakfast.

whilst walking round the store we noticed lots of peeps staring at us in disgust.

what we hadnt relised was we were walking sess pits,stinking of rotten fish,oh de mackeral.
quick purchase of lynx and walk to bog for a quick freshen up :) :ninja:

pink
19-06-2012, 19:56
... your dirty washing would attract so much attention. You could always sell your worn knickers to pervs on EBAY and use the money to pay somebody to wash the rest:D

ooohhhh!!!lol...think the natural history museum would be more interested in them though!!:o

pink
19-06-2012, 19:58
just wear combats camo ones you cant see the dirt then and yer smalls just turn them outside in.:ninja:
few years ago our club did a weeks fishing trip on the west coast of scotland,on the last day we decided to head to fortbill
for a tescos breakfast.

whilst walking round the store we noticed lots of peeps staring at us in disgust.

what we hadnt relised was we were walking sess pits,stinking of rotten fish,oh de mackeral.
quick purchase of lynx and walk to bog for a quick freshen up :) :ninja:

lol,eewww...you wernt tesco finest that day were you??:lol-049::lol-049:

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 20:00
I assume you have a day off to solve your washing issues x

Funky Farmer
19-06-2012, 20:11
... your dirty washing would attract so much attention. You could always sell your worn knickers to pervs on EBAY and use the money to pay somebody to wash the rest:D
For your addy on ebay... Only trying to help you understand:dance:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/Funky/ca5ff7c1.jpg

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 20:17
There are times when I worry about you;)

pink
19-06-2012, 20:22
I assume you have a day off to solve your washing issues x

lol...yes..infact 3 days off,all in a row lol,as from this week my new reduced hours have kicked in..:banana:

pink
19-06-2012, 20:25
For your addy on ebay... Only trying to help you understand:dance:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/Funky/ca5ff7c1.jpg

lol,very good...so thats where i left them..do you know they double up as a shower curtain?? kills two birds with one stone...:lol-053:.

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 20:26
Not long now until you get your van:)

pink
19-06-2012, 20:27
There are times when I worry about you;)

this has helped a great deal thanks..lots of great ideas..in fact i,m just about to bid on ebay on a washer;bit like the salad spinner..brand new,only a tenner!!!

pink
19-06-2012, 20:33
this has helped a great deal thanks..lots of great ideas..in fact i,m just about to bid on ebay on a washer;bit like the salad spinner..brand new,only a tenner!!!

didnt bid afterall,it went up to 22.50 plus a tenner for postage and wasnt sure if they,d let me fetch it..have answered an ad in gumtree though,waiting to hear from that..

Bushtrekker
19-06-2012, 20:33
He was always saying 'Lettuce Spray':lol-049:

pink
19-06-2012, 20:36
Not long now until you get your van:)

no,not long at all now..;)

scenictraveller
19-06-2012, 20:38
best thing to do is park beside a river fast flowing and get a wash board and take it from there.

also good to have a few lines of hooks coming from the washboard just incase of passing fish.

arumba
19-06-2012, 21:55
i have had a portable twin tub i bought it years ago ready for when we retire and dec8de to tour europe ive used it once to try it out its now gathering dust waiting for us to retire lol but i know it will get used well

REC
05-07-2012, 22:23
I have given great thought to washing smalls over the years! In portugal, we are off grid (a barn not a MH) and initially I washed stuff in the stream...till I discovered tadpoles in my clothes! Time of the year..and the water was so cold my hands would go blue! Then I used the neighbours concrete "tub" complete with concrete scrub board...was a bit enthusiastic and wore holes in Daves boxers! :o. Then found a plastic twintub on ebay (harrison make) which is fantastic. Need to use the genny tho..not enough solar to run it. Smaller than the old fashioned ones but takes a good load and fairly fast spin, and very lightweight. Would only fit in a large self build van tho...it is probably 1m X 500cm. Uses approx 350w for washer and 150w for spinner (or t'other way around..cant remember).
Anyway good luck with your smalls, Pink and commiserations to Jonas's wife :D

alanval
06-07-2012, 06:59
Hi we take with us a small Spin drier got it from Currys, I know at least 4 others with same one ,also i got a Posser so washing no prob the spinner is good especially for jeans and bedding.
Spinner and Genny fit nicely in our little outside locker.......Even spun the old Portugese lady`s washing at Padern she was delighted lol..

..FRIGIDAIRE SFD28 Spin Dryer - White buy online | Currys (http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/frigidaire-sfd28-spin-dryer-white-00777760-pdt.html)

n brown
06-07-2012, 07:03
theres a lot of diehards amongst the portugese women who swear that the concrete washing machine [ one woman-power washboard ] is the only way to get clothes properly clean.so they still make them,but also in plastic for the modern woman ! they still have those bucket showers in the drogarias,they are great,a bucket with a showerhead in the base and 2 chains to operate the tap, fill with warm water and hang from a branch,we had a galvanised one but my wife was always looking longingly at the white enamelled ones with brass taps !

Viktor
06-07-2012, 09:26
This looks like a possibility Wonder Wash - The Laundry Alternative (http://camping.about.com/od/campinggearreviews/gr/wonderwash.htm)


Video: http://www.squidoo.com/countertop-washing-machines

Barbt
06-07-2012, 10:48
This looks like a possibility Wonder Wash - The Laundry Alternative (http://camping.about.com/od/campinggearreviews/gr/wonderwash.htm)


Video: Small Countertop Washing Machines - Mini Portable Washers For Camping and Apartments (http://www.squidoo.com/countertop-washing-machines)

We have had one of these for a few years - they work very well, we often use water from a river or stream in it. You can't get much in at a time but it certainly works.

MATS
06-07-2012, 11:04
I find it just easier to take our main washing machine with when we go away, strap it to the top of the van and off we go. Yes we have to use a camp site with a tap close by and 16a socket but as it is cold fill only there is no issue - and Lidl bio washing liquid serves both the machine and the loo - easy when you know how!


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