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ournev
14-05-2013, 15:19
The POI at 53.90889, -0.16056 Car park in Hornsea East Yorkshire now has a no camping sleeping sign at the entrance. It has "By Order" appended at the bottom. Which order this refers to or whether it has any force in English Law I seriously doubt. The car park is owned by East Rising of Yorkshire council and it is unlikely that there will be strict enforcement.

Now the better news.

The POI across the road (shows as HORNSEA in the database) appears to be still OK.

I will ask why this has been done and try to get the sign removed although I have no sway with what we hereabouts call "Deaf Eric" (ERYC)

Cheers

AndyC
14-05-2013, 15:59
The POI at 53.90889, -0.16056 Car park in Hornsea East Yorkshire now has a no camping sleeping sign at the entrance. It has "By Order" appended at the bottom. Which order this refers to or whether it has any force in English Law I seriously doubt. The car park is owned by East Rising of Yorkshire council and it is unlikely that there will be strict enforcement.

This car park (and all other council car parks in the area) is covered by The East Riding of Yorkshire Council (Off Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) (Consolidation) Order 2012, which precludes sleeping, camping or cooking. The terms of the order can be enforced if they are on display at the car park.

AndyC

ournev
14-05-2013, 18:07
Thanks for the link to the proposal which I have read.

Do you have a link to the order itself?

Cheers,

Neville

AndyC
15-05-2013, 08:43
Thanks for the link to the proposal which I have read.

Do you have a link to the order itself?

Cheers,

Neville

It's here: http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/files/YE17.pdf

AndyC

Smaug
15-05-2013, 08:48
This car park (and all other council car parks in the area) is covered by The East Riding of Yorkshire Council (Off Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) (Consolidation) Order 2012, which precludes sleeping, camping or cooking. The terms of the order can be enforced if they are on display at the car park.
AndyC

I read that as they are unenforceable UNLESS displayed on site, but does that mean the entire order, a summary or just it's official title, or just the fact that it says "By Order"? Sorry to be pedantic but my other alf is terrified of such vague "orders" & unspecified signs while I tend to be happy ignoring them. If we do ever get done I will never hear the end of it!! :idea-007:

AndyC
15-05-2013, 09:29
I read that as they are unenforceable UNLESS displayed on site, but does that mean the entire order, a summary or just it's official title, or just the fact that it says "By Order"? Sorry to be pedantic but my other alf is terrified of such vague "orders" & unspecified signs while I tend to be happy ignoring them. If we do ever get done I will never hear the end of it!! :idea-007:

Contravening regulations at off-street car parks will likely result in a PCN being issued by whoever is responsible for enforcing the regs.

However, as a result of a long conversation with the legal advisers at the CAB (who have taken over responsibility for the former government service, Consumer Direct) it seems that The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts legislation applies to off-street parking.

When you park in a car park you are forming a contract with the parking provider, the legislation states that terms of a contract may be unfair if they have the object or effect of irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract.

There is guidance to the legislation here: www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft311.pdf (http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft311.pdf) Scroll down to Group 9 on page 50.

It was the opinion of the CAB legal adviser that parking conditions that were not on display at the point where the contract was made (i.e. at the car park itself) could be considered to contravene the unfair contracts legislation. It is a fundamental requirement of contractual fairness that consumers should always have an opportunity to read and understand terms before becoming bound by them. In his opinion it would not be sufficient for a sign to indicate where the parking terms and condition could be examined, for example at council offices, as they would not then be available to the consumer at the point where the contract was made.

I am not a legal expert but my understanding is that you would be bound by any terms that were on display, but any that were not in display could be found to be in contravention of the unfair contracts legislation.

AndyC

ournev
15-05-2013, 12:30
Thanks Andyc for the link to the order.

Having read through it I see that the open land stretching from the apex of the corner southwards along the seafront isn't designated as a car park so there would be no restrictions here. It is not as flat as the car park but has a nicer outlook.

I am now wondering about the extent of the car park as it is surrounded by rough grassed areas although I suspect that "Deaf Eric" have thought of this and will have some other order covering overnighting there.

However whilst there is still the other land available all is not lost.

There are plans afoot to develop the car park area. I hope to see the recommended option tomorrow and will post if it is relevant.

One last thing for anyone who may want to ignore the sign. Enforcement will be highly unlikely out of normal working hours especially as the car park is FREE - a positive note for anyone with a big unit wanting daytime only parking.

Neville

Smaug
15-05-2013, 15:33
Thanks, AndyC

A very helpful reply. I suspect that I could well get a PCN, but I MAY have grounds for appealing it, altho the Councill will probably deny my initial appeal aginst the ticket & I would have to take the risk of going to court where I may well succeed - or take the bigger penalty if I fail.

I can see why my missus might be nervous of such an outcome! :egg:

But it is very helpfull to understand the issues.

Toonman
15-05-2013, 19:57
Thanks, AndyC

A very helpful reply. I suspect that I could well get a PCN, but I MAY have grounds for appealing it, altho the Councill will probably deny my initial appeal aginst the ticket & I would have to take the risk of going to court where I may well succeed - or take the bigger penalty if I fail.

I can see why my missus might be nervous of such an outcome! :egg:

But it is very helpfull to understand the issues.

These do not end up in court but are referred to a three part process. This is best explained on the Martin Lewis site...

Parking Ticket Appeals (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals#appeal)


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