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Kryten
16-10-2013, 21:56
I'm seeing banner ads for red diesel on this website and I know it's illegal to use to for driving but is it still illegal if you have diesel heating in your van and both holding tanks are independent of each other? If using Red Diesel is illegal why am I getting the banner ads?

Touringtheworld
16-10-2013, 22:09
NEVER NEVER EVER run a vehicle on red - You may never get caught but a friend of mine had to re mortgage his house because his son did get caught - he was fined £5000 for the offense and had to pay £5000 in back duty. He was caught in a Ford Transit towing a trailer with a car on. It was suggested he did this on a regular basis over a ten year period - it was up to him to prove different - he couldn't and the judge had no option but impose maximum tariff.

Kryten
16-10-2013, 22:13
I was thinking more of the heating side so you're only using the red diesel for heating but your heating inside a m/h. Normal over taxed diesel for actual running of the m/h.

maingate
16-10-2013, 22:15
You would only have a separate tank for Red diesel if you did a selfbuild.

I considered this myself when I was going to do a selfbuild on an ex mobile library. A local garage has a red diesel pump but I have not seen another pump like it on a forecourt, so I dropped the idea.

Smaug
16-10-2013, 22:48
If you have a separate tank then you can use red diesel at 5% vat for heating.

It is so common for boats (which can use red for transport or heating) that there is an agreed tax ratio assumed of 20% heating & 80% transport.

But as already said don't ever confuse the two as the dye stains for a long time.

maxi77
17-10-2013, 07:24
NEVER NEVER EVER run a vehicle on red - You may never get caught but a friend of mine had to re mortgage his house because his son did get caught - he was fined £5000 for the offense and had to pay £5000 in back duty. He was caught in a Ford Transit towing a trailer with a car on. It was suggested he did this on a regular basis over a ten year period - it was up to him to prove different - he couldn't and the judge had no option but impose maximum tariff.

These days they often seize the vehicle too.

torwood
17-10-2013, 08:28
These days they often seize the vehicle too. yes I have been there when they have done so, also the pressure is on HMRC to claw an much back to the Exchequer as possible, so if you've got it they will strip you of it!

n brown
17-10-2013, 08:35
same in france,stuck in the middle of nowhere I asked a farmer to sell me a gallon of red from his large tank,he was horrified and sucked a gallon out of his car instead !

Smaug
17-10-2013, 08:51
same in france,stuck in the middle of nowhere I asked a farmer to sell me a gallon of red from his large tank,he was horrified and sucked a gallon out of his car instead !

They don't even allow red in boats on the continent which is a real problem for cross channel sailors (EU & UK based) as marinas only sell red on the English side.

invalid
17-10-2013, 08:53
yes I have been there when they have done so, also the pressure is on HMRC to claw an much back to the Exchequer as possible, so if you've got it they will strip you of it!

I make Bio Diesel, customs and police hate people like me, I can produce 2.500lts of Bio a year with no tax no paperwork.
There not happy, but it would cost them too much to get the revenue. I can not stress enough do not run any motor home on red, or you will need to take up camping.

invalid
17-10-2013, 12:02
As long as the motor home is not too new, run 20lts of bio through with normal diesel, this will clear out all your fuel lines and tank, you will need to change fuel filter after this as it’s surprising how much debris there is in the fuel system.

Philcott
17-10-2013, 14:24
As long as the motor home is not too new, run 20lts of bio through with normal diesel, this will clear out all your fuel lines and tank, you will need to change fuel filter after this as it’s surprising how much debris there is in the fuel system.

Where can one buy biodiesel? I'm in Suffolk, I think there was somewhere in Cambridgeshire, but the webaddress doesn't seem to be working. Anyone any idea? Thanks!

ricc
17-10-2013, 18:35
someone close to me(somerset) had their lorry dipped recently..2nd hand story was red diesel is instant fine, vehicle impounded till its paid, something like 3 days unpaid and the vehicle is transfered to a storage compound near dover and costs escalate. its not the first time this particular guy has been caught.

if you buy a used diesel vehicle it pays to keep mileage and fuel records so you can prove youve bought fuel at the pumps that tallies with the mileage youve covered, then you stand a good chance of convincing a court that any trace of red must be down to a previous owner.
though in 25 years of driving diesel cars and vans ive never been dipped

though i will confess to once putting about 10 gallons of red in a van..... the tank split on a bit of plant, it was either catch most of the red diesel in a plastic water bottle and pour it in the van or let it all go on the ground next to a water course. it seemed the right thing to do at the time.

Kryten
17-10-2013, 20:04
All these comments and stories have me thinking that having a separate tank for heating but using red diesel is a problem waiting to surface. Even if you only use the red for heating your van, and it's from a separate tank the customs people will check that tank and ask questions. Even if innocent the hassle just doesn't seen to be worth it, especially when your van can be taken away. I think I will drop this idea and stick with gas or buy a petrol fueled van.

helmit
17-10-2013, 20:46
I'm seeing banner ads for red diesel on this website and I know it's illegal to use to for driving but is it still illegal if you have diesel heating in your van and both holding tanks are independent of each other? If using Red Diesel is illegal why am I getting the banner ads?

No problem mate I use a separate tank to run my eberspacher and I use either red from a tame farmer or kerosene from central heating tank.

Smaug
17-10-2013, 20:55
All these comments and stories have me thinking that having a separate tank for heating but using red diesel is a problem waiting to surface. Even if you only use the red for heating your van, and it's from a separate tank the customs people will check that tank and ask questions. Even if innocent the hassle just doesn't seen to be worth it, especially when your van can be taken away. I think I will drop this idea and stick with gas or buy a petrol fueled van.

As long as they are separate you will have no problems, they will dip the engine tank to check for traces of red & they will check for feeds from the heating tank to the engine & may even check out the engine fuel filter for traces. But as long as you keep them separate they can't touch you. You could always make your own Bio-diesel.

ricc
18-10-2013, 07:15
i dont think anyone should worry about what fuel a previous owner has used, chances of someone having used red in a private car or motor home are slight and .theres also a world of difference between finding pure red diesel in the fuel filter and a trace from a previous owner putting some in years ago...even vosa know when they are looking at an argument in court rather than an easy fine...contested court cases just aint cost effective for them unless they know they have a good chance of winning with substantial fine.

Gee
18-10-2013, 08:35
Never used red even though we use it at work for plant. Got dipped once but the guy couldn't get a sample. His mate came up and told him on these vans unless the tank is near full they can't get a sample as the tank is to far away from the opening. Citroen Relay 2006 (old shape)

maxi77
18-10-2013, 12:27
i dont think anyone should worry about what fuel a previous owner has used, chances of someone having used red in a private car or motor home are slight and .theres also a world of difference between finding pure red diesel in the fuel filter and a trace from a previous owner putting some in years ago...even vosa know when they are looking at an argument in court rather than an easy fine...contested court cases just aint cost effective for them unless they know they have a good chance of winning with substantial fine.

There is an specific concentration of red that specifies an offence, if the tank has been refilled from below half a few times you will be below it. The red die can be removed but there is a chemical marker as well which cannot be removed and this is what they test for.

The Camper
18-10-2013, 13:38
I worked for a company a few years ago and the directors and management had been caught using red diesel in their vehicles. I got told the story (as did all new employees) by the workers.
The MD got away with it has he had been away on business and then tipped off by his fellow directors (the diesel car he had at the time was never seen again).
The manager managed to ‘escape’ as he was at the other end of the building at the time with his car but they called at his house later in the day and he also was caught.
The customs turned up (after most likely at tip off from a disgruntled employee) with effectively a laboratory on wheels and checked all the diesel cars in the car park and were surprised that it was only management upwards that had been caught using red diesel (they said it was almost always the ‘lower staff’ that they usually catch).
All the ‘guilty cars’ were loaded on flat back lorries and taken away to have new fuel tanks fitted.
I didn’t get to find out how much in total it cost the company but I bet that it wasn’t cheap :)

trevskoda
18-10-2013, 19:09
I worked for a company a few years ago and the directors and management had been caught using red diesel in their vehicles. I got told the story (as did all new employees) by the workers.
The MD got away with it has he had been away on business and then tipped off by his fellow directors (the diesel car he had at the time was never seen again).
The manager managed to ‘escape’ as he was at the other end of the building at the time with his car but they called at his house later in the day and he also was caught.
The customs turned up (after most likely at tip off from a disgruntled employee) with effectively a laboratory on wheels and checked all the diesel cars in the car park and were surprised that it was only management upwards that had been caught using red diesel (they said it was almost always the ‘lower staff’ that they usually catch).
All the ‘guilty cars’ were loaded on flat back lorries and taken away to have new fuel tanks fitted.
I didn’t get to find out how much in total it cost the company but I bet that it wasn’t cheap :)

customs could not touch cars on co property,have to be on highway,this story sounds like a load of old tosh as most
second hand stories are.

The Camper
18-10-2013, 20:33
[QUOTE=trevskoda;359130]customs could not touch cars on co property,have to be on highway,this story sounds like a load of old tosh as most
second hand stories are.[/QUOTE

I think that you will find that HM Revenue & Customs could search pretty much anywhere they want.

gaz2676
18-10-2013, 20:38
customs could not touch cars on co property,have to be on highway,this story sounds like a load of old tosh as most
second hand stories are.

think you'll find ya wrong there bud

maingate
18-10-2013, 20:44
customs could not touch cars on co property,have to be on highway,this story sounds like a load of old tosh as most
second hand stories are.

I think you have that wrong mate.

In the 1970's a lot of lads who worked at the Cokeworks went to Court for using the petrol that was produced (and sold on to the Oil Companies). It was higher Octane and knocked the life out of engines but was cheaper to buy an engine from a scrappie and drop it in. You also needed to pour hot water on to the inlet manifold in cold weather otherwise it would not start. :( They all ran old cars as the steam given off from the Coke quencher gave off acidic steam which accelerated the rust factor a lot. :sad:

Their cars were impounded in the Works car park and dipped. The fines were hundreds of pounds (which was a lot of money in the 1970's).

n brown
18-10-2013, 20:59
when working at thiefrow years ago I always understood that customs had a lot more power than the cops

FULL TIMER
18-10-2013, 21:09
All these comments and stories have me thinking that having a separate tank for heating but using red diesel is a problem waiting to surface. Even if you only use the red for heating your van, and it's from a separate tank the customs people will check that tank and ask questions. Even if innocent the hassle just doesn't seen to be worth it, especially when your van can be taken away. I think I will drop this idea and stick with gas or buy a petrol fueled van.

there should be no problem at all with having a separate tank and using red ,heating oil or even paraffin for a heater, eberspacher sell fuel tanks for this purpose, it will be obvious to any inspector that it is only there for the heater

fofeg101
19-10-2013, 04:49
H.M.C&E used to regularly set up a mobile Lab on the main road near here, hoping to catch Farmers running their road vehicles on Red Diesel, or Heating Oil. My Pal used to have a Petrol Land Rover which sounded so rough it sounded like a diesel. The Revenue Men pulled him over and asked if they could dip his tank, he told them to go ahead, they expressed surprise that he had petrol in his tank, he told them they had never asked...he'd let them go ahead just for the fun. Anyway, these days, like all Government Departments, IR, Benefits, etc., they rely more on receiving information from whistle blowers than on putting people in the field checking. Motto: If you have anything to hide...Don't fall out with your neighbours!!.

torwood
19-10-2013, 08:11
when working at thiefrow years ago I always understood that customs had a lot more power than the cops

Significantly more! - The term Draconian does not say it all!! Virtually go anywhere, do as they please with little accountability except to George Osborne!

torwood
19-10-2013, 08:15
....Anyway, these days, like all Government Departments, IR, Benefits, etc., they rely more on receiving information from whistle blowers than on putting people in the field checking. ...

Not so, they are more active now than ever before, with less money going into the Exchequer they are under intense political pressure to 'maximise' returns. Not just in the UK but other countries are doing it more - we have an apartment in France near to Andorra. As a tax haven you run the gauntlet of customs when coming out. I saw a motorhome with the owners sitting outside and a pile of booze, fags and other stuff being confiscated. Even if they bought it in France / Spain they have to have receipts on them before going through Andorra. I have been stopped and searched many times when going for fuel (diesel at 1.17 euro!)

maxi77
19-10-2013, 08:23
Significantly more! - The term Draconian does not say it all!! Virtually go anywhere, do as they please with little accountability except to George Osborne!

You must remember they got most of their powers from Charles 1 when he reformed UK tax collection in his battles with Parliament. Why do you think they were given VAT to collect rather than inland revenue

trevskoda
19-10-2013, 18:27
think you'll find ya wrong there bud

i have a friend in hmrc ,you can put water in your car for all they care,but once you drive on highway then you breaking the law
thats why its called road duty.
as for the person stating lower down page that higher octain will wreck engines,well no it will not you would be just wasting money, its lower octain that will damage your donky,as it will pre ignite knowen as pinking ,this will eat piston crowns like hell.
as i worked in motor trade and now run my own marine biz i think 40 odd years with engines i might know a wee bit.
i do like and enjoy this forum,but find to many people would not know a gigil pin from a underslung brush shaft,te he.

maingate
19-10-2013, 18:37
i have a friend in hmrc ,you can put water in your car for all they care,but once you drive on highway then you breaking the law
thats why its called road duty.
as for the person stating lower down page that higher octain will wreck engines,well no it will not you would be just wasting money, its lower octain that will damage your donky,as it will pre ignite knowen as pinking ,this will eat piston crowns like hell.
as i worked in motor trade and now run my own marine biz i think 40 odd years with engines i might know a wee bit.
i do like and enjoy this forum,but find to many people would not know a gigil pin from a underslung brush shaft,te he.

You might know a bit about engines but you don't know anything about the 'rocket fuel' that went into those cars. :lol-049:

You need to read the post again. The point was they were not spending any money at all. That is why they got such big fines.

trevskoda
19-10-2013, 19:09
You might know a bit about engines but you don't know anything about the 'rocket fuel' that went into those cars. :lol-049:

You need to read the post again. The point was they were not spending any money at all. That is why they got such big fines.

hi if they had paid duty on it they could use it all day long,do you also know you can use home brew bio up to 2500 litres a
year and they dont want to know iv been on ph to them,though still baffles me how they would know,as you could just say i made it yesterday.
by the way never use red evin if its washed through cat litter to remove die,they have a chemical tracer in it which will show up,
i live in norn iron and the scamers to use a polite word are at this and cought every week here,they also put bleach in which you can smell & it will wreck engines.
now you have had this from the horses mouth shuse dont tell anyone ,ps please excuse my spelling as im dexelexicmery thingy regards trev.

Kryten
19-10-2013, 19:14
You might know a bit about engines but you don't know anything about the 'rocket fuel' that went into those cars. :lol-049:

You need to read the post again. The point was they were not spending any money at all. That is why they got such big fines.

The point of the post was whether using red diesel for heating your motorhome where the red is kept separate from the road diesel will create problems with hmrc.

If you're stopped and they dip your road tank and it's ok then they find a second tank containing red they will ask a few questions. This is hmrc so your guilty until proven otherwise.

Opinion on here says that it's ok, although I wouldn't want my van stripped or taken away.

mark61
19-10-2013, 19:15
Of course the HMRC can seize cars on private property, if they believe or have proof an offence has been committed.

vwalan
19-10-2013, 19:16
you can run red if you have paid the duty .
normally on the road its a 500quid fine then you just carry on using the fuel . repeated using it it costs more . its highly unlikely they will take the vehicle . unless its a repeated offence . as for the red dye . if you were working off road you could use red . if weeks later or what ever you drain the tank fill with normal diesel . if they stop you they may ask but usually dont .
i carry a diesel genny in my truck always have 5 litres of red to go in it . they really dont care .

Smaug
19-10-2013, 19:25
i have a friend in hmrc ,you can put water in your car for all they care,but once you drive on highway then you breaking the law
thats why its called road duty.
as for the person stating lower down page that higher octain will wreck engines,well no it will not you would be just wasting money, its lower octain that will damage your donky,as it will pre ignite knowen as pinking ,this will eat piston crowns like hell.
as i worked in motor trade and now run my own marine biz i think 40 odd years with engines i might know a wee bit.
i do like and enjoy this forum,but find to many people would not know a gigil pin from a underslung brush shaft,te he.

No it's not, it's either fuel tax & VAT on the fuel or Vehicle Excise Duty if it's on the windscreen. NEITHER is ring-fenced for roads, they just go into the general exchequer. But please don't let mere facts affect your beliefs.

trevskoda
19-10-2013, 19:34
you can run red if you have paid the duty .
normally on the road its a 500quid fine then you just carry on using the fuel . repeated using it it costs more . its highly unlikely they will take the vehicle . unless its a repeated offence . as for the red dye . if you were working off road you could use red . if weeks later or what ever you drain the tank fill with normal diesel . if they stop you they may ask but usually dont .
i carry a diesel genny in my truck always have 5 litres of red to go in it . they really dont care .

yes customs can enter property at any time if a crime is thougt to be commited,but puting red in is not a crime unless drivin on road and yes ubove posts stating you can use red or 28 sec heating oil in separit tank is fine.
if any one is worried why not ring them up and have a we chat there not monsters ,well hopefully.

maxi77
19-10-2013, 21:22
you can run red if you have paid the duty .
normally on the road its a 500quid fine then you just carry on using the fuel . repeated using it it costs more . its highly unlikely they will take the vehicle . unless its a repeated offence . as for the red dye . if you were working off road you could use red . if weeks later or what ever you drain the tank fill with normal diesel . if they stop you they may ask but usually dont .
i carry a diesel genny in my truck always have 5 litres of red to go in it . they really dont care .

Whilst it may be legal to run on red off road I wonder just what concentration would attract their ire on the roads. Also in some European countries the offence is actually having red, (or green if you are Irish) in the tank of a vehicle which should have white irrespectively of whether the coloured diesel got into the tank legally or not. Boaties have found that Belgium is particularly narky on this though the Dutch and Germans are also on the case.

vwalan
19-10-2013, 21:30
if you have paid the duty on red they give you a receipt . it was mainly that the red soon goes .
i have driven plant trucks and seen it myself and been stopped on the road . we did drain and put in white . just to be safe . never cleaned tanks. certainly after draining and refilling you couldnt see any red . i would have work sheets explaining my hours etc . so they could check .

Smaug
19-10-2013, 21:42
I wonder how tractor drivers deal with this? Around the farm they can use red, but they can drive on the road (up to 28 days I believe) without needing to tax the tractor. Do they have to empty & refill with white when on the road, cos many farmers will have fields that can only be accessed along public roads.

maxi77
19-10-2013, 21:42
if you have paid the duty on red they give you a receipt . it was mainly that the red soon goes .
i have driven plant trucks and seen it myself and been stopped on the road . we did drain and put in white . just to be safe . never cleaned tanks. certainly after draining and refilling you couldnt see any red . i would have work sheets explaining my hours etc . so they could check .

As a general rule I have always found our customs to be as interested in the spirit of the law rather than the absolutes and if they are happy you are not trying to pull their collective plonkers they will let you merrily on your way. On the continent the letter can hold sway over common sense, and as I said the offence in several countries is having red in a tank it shouldn't be in whether it got there legally or not. To them your camper should not have red in it because in many countries it is the class of vehicle not the place it operates that attracts the duty rebate. Thus leisure vehicle at land or sea cannot have red. There is actually a dispute in the EU about this at the present attacking the way the UK has traditionally treated duty rebated fuel

vwalan
19-10-2013, 22:53
a few years ago france had a fuel shortage or strikes theyt gave permission for you to use red in cars . just disclose how much you had uszed . its all a farce every where .
tractors can use red on roads if going to fields etc there is no time limit . there is consultation asking for defined use of tractors but as yet as far as i know it hasnt happened yet, there are about 9 classes of vehicles that can use rebated heavy oil as its called . this can be red ,green or solvent yellow 124 marker used in eu countries . mind using central heating oil isnt allowed either . for that a viscosity test will show it .

FULL TIMER
19-10-2013, 23:49
I thought the government were going to do away with red ,I can remember something being said that farmers were not going to be able to use it anymore but they would be able to claim the duty back from the standard diesel, I'm pretty sure they were planning on banning its use in boats( if they havn't already ) there was a lot of moaning from the hire companies here on the broads about it

ricc
20-10-2013, 08:42
,Iis some years sincei last looked at the trator regs bu I it usd to be you coulduse red for agricultural purposes including transport of your own goods with no restricion, but you couldn't haul for a nighbour.

Some years ago there was a fuss over trimming verges, on a council contract the tractor had to use white even when it as back on home farm usage. , council suddenly found nobody wanted their vege contracts.

Apologies for the typing, big fingers testing a 7 inch tablet

maxi77
20-10-2013, 08:44
I thought the government were going to do away with red ,I can remember something being said that farmers were not going to be able to use it anymore but they would be able to claim the duty back from the standard diesel, I'm pretty sure they were planning on banning its use in boats( if they havn't already ) there was a lot of moaning from the hire companies here on the broads about it

Rebated diesel is an EU wide thing and the controls on it are harmonised, though the UK is still hanging on to some traditional users. As far as I am aware there is no plan to discontinue rebated diesel but there are stricter definitions for it's use. It in the UK can still be used in all boats but non commercial boats must pay full duty on the proportion used for propulsion, in most other EU countries this is not the case and non commercial vessels must use white, and just having rebated fuel is an offence even if duty has been paid. All very complicated. Quite how other countries treat road vehicles I am not sure but as EU law treats a boat much the same as a car I suspect it may well be the same.

trevskoda
21-10-2013, 10:47
I wonder how tractor drivers deal with this? Around the farm they can use red, but they can drive on the road (up to 28 days I believe) without needing to tax the tractor. Do they have to empty & refill with white when on the road, cos many farmers will have fields that can only be accessed along public roads.

tractors can run six mile radus from farm ,when i was at school some of the boys at 16 drove them to school


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