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smillingjimmyc
23-10-2013, 15:17
Sorry if said elsewhere but just noticed the council are in the process of erecting signs in their free carparks indicating that there should be no overnight stay,sleeping,cooking. :mad2:

Smaug
23-10-2013, 15:20
But is there any reference to a Traffic Regulation Order or bye laws that authorise such signs?

smillingjimmyc
23-10-2013, 15:26
But is there any reference to a Traffic Regulation Order or bye laws that authorise such signs?

Yes,the three I have seen did refer to some traffic order or suchlike, I will have closer look tomorrow.No.forget tomorrow I'll have a look at one local to me in about half an hour to make sure!

Wooie1958
23-10-2013, 15:36
Can you take a photo and put it on here ? That will stop any confusion and guess work.

smillingjimmyc
23-10-2013, 17:47
But is there any reference to a Traffic Regulation Order or bye laws that authorise such signs?

The bits that are relevant are the obvious "no sleeping,cooking,camping" and as regards to tro's etc the sign reads:-
"Penalty.
Failure to comply with the conditions of use and regulations within the relevant traffic regulation order may result in a penalty charge notice being issued"

How legally binding this is etc. I'm sure someone more clever than me will be along soon to tell us.

maingate
23-10-2013, 18:17
Can you pinpoint which car parks these are please?

Smaug
23-10-2013, 18:39
The bits that are relevant are the obvious "no sleeping,cooking,camping" and as regards to tro's etc the sign reads:-
"Penalty.
Failure to comply with the conditions of use and regulations within the relevant traffic regulation order may result in a penalty charge notice being issued"

How legally binding this is etc. I'm sure someone more clever than me will be along soon to tell us.

I'm no legal eagle, but I suspect it depends on what the TRO says & I do wonder if it actually specifies no sleeping etc - because it is almost impossible to prove that the van is even occupied, never mind whether they are asleep or awake. Especially if they've been woken by some ass hole hammering on the door.

"I'm not cooking, I'm having a cup of tea" "I'm not camping, I've parked up for a rest - to read a book - to check my e-mails" etc etc.

NeilyG
23-10-2013, 19:05
Wondered if you could upload a photo of the sign. Am especially interested as I stay on the Northumberland Coast every now and then.
Any chance of revealing where it is? http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php)

smillingjimmyc
24-10-2013, 07:46
Wondered if you could upload a photo of the sign. Am especially interested as I stay on the Northumberland Coast every now and then.
Any chance of revealing where it is? http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php)

The three signs I've seen so far are in newbiggin,ashington and blyth.I would not advise overnighting at any of these car parks.I did take a photo but can't seem to put it up on here however the wording on the sign is what I have stated.
I just wondered if these signs were "going up" county wide or hopefully just built up areas in s.e northumberland.
Perhaps if someone is out and about in more rural northumberland they may be able to check.

maureenandtom
24-10-2013, 08:53
Pictures and locations are the most useful reports.

I think it's becoming clear that councils back down when challenged about signs saying "No Overnighting", probably because they haven't defined what "overnight" means. Islandman's successes in various places and statements elsewhere such as North Devon stating that they won't enforce them and Cornwall putting their difficulty in these very plain words:

"However this restriction has proved difficult to enforce because of the issues of proving that those activities are taking place (eg does a motorhome with the curtains closed contain people sleeping or is it just parked)."

Interestingly, this statement from Cornwall does show that they have an understanding not usually acknowledged that there is a difference between parking and camping.

Smaug
24-10-2013, 10:01
Pictures and locations are the most useful reports.

I think it's becoming clear that councils back down when challenged about signs saying "No Overnighting", probably because they haven't defined what "overnight" means. Islandman's successes in various places and statements elsewhere such as North Devon stating that they won't enforce them and Cornwall putting their difficulty in these very plain words:

"However this restriction has proved difficult to enforce because of the issues of proving that those activities are taking place (eg does a motorhome with the curtains closed contain people sleeping or is it just parked)."

Interestingly, this statement from Cornwall does show that they have an understanding not usually acknowledged that there is a difference between parking and camping.

Hhhm, I'm not actually sure there IS a difference between parking a vehicle empty & sleeping in a parked vehicle. M-way services quote the "Fire risk" of cooking in a vehicle but are happy to allow people wandering around lighting up pipes, cigars & ciggies. (BTW, I am deliberately excluding Runnach from this comparison! :bow:)

Certainly I can sleep overnight & have brekkie in the morning without ever leaving the van or opening the shutters. Someone outside would struggle to know I was in there, unless I started grumbling about summat!

It would be interesting to challenge a Council to explain what damage is done if a parked vehicle happens to have someone sleeping/ cooking in it.

I have a theory that people who live on boats or in caravans or motorhomes etc, or even those that rent furnished rooms are extremely hard to pin down for fines, taxes etc. It is relatively easy for them to just "moonlight" & set up in a different location, leaving their debts behind them. THAT is what officials & authority really don't like. Even tho we may only be temporary mobile residents, we are often perceived in the same way and assumed to be utterly feckless.

maureenandtom
24-10-2013, 11:45
Hhhm, I'm not actually sure there IS a difference between parking a vehicle empty & sleeping in a parked vehicle. M-way services quote the "Fire risk" of cooking in a vehicle but are happy to allow people wandering around lighting up pipes, cigars & ciggies. (BTW, I am deliberately excluding Runnach from this comparison! :bow:)

Certainly I can sleep overnight & have brekkie in the morning without ever leaving the van or opening the shutters. Someone outside would struggle to know I was in there, unless I started grumbling about summat!

It would be interesting to challenge a Council to explain what damage is done if a parked vehicle happens to have someone sleeping/ cooking in it.

I have a theory that people who live on boats or in caravans or motorhomes etc, or even those that rent furnished rooms are extremely hard to pin down for fines, taxes etc. It is relatively easy for them to just "moonlight" & set up in a different location, leaving their debts behind them. THAT is what officials & authority really don't like. Even tho we may only be temporary mobile residents, we are often perceived in the same way and assumed to be utterly feckless.

I have the same theory about authority worrying about us mobile people being hard to pin down but we all have vehicle registration numbers so we are traceable and if we aren't there are number plate recognition cameras all over the place. We can soon be caught.

That first bit though. There's no doubt in Cornwall's mind. Look again at what they say - and at what they don't say here but do elsewhere. They're using this argument in support of creating another offence.

"However this restriction has proved difficult to enforce because of the issues of proving that those activities are taking place (eg does a motorhome with the curtains closed contain people sleeping or is it just parked)."

The offensive activities have been cooking, sleeping, camping. However the council says that these offences are difficult to prove with the curtains closed - they say "or is it just parked". The, almost explict, meaning is that there is no offence of just parking.

I have difficulty with the next bit. The council thinking goes: 1. Here we have a parked motorhome. 2. It's curtains are closed. 3. We don't know if there is an offence going on behind the curtains.

So, with the gift of either morons or, alternatively, highly intelligent people, they say, "Well, in that case let's make being "just parked" into an offence. Which in Cornwall and North Yorks they proceed to do. And in East Lothian they tried, unsuccessfully to do.

This strikes me as being something highly dangerous for all of us as a society. Not only a punishable offence to commit a crime but also a punishable offence of having the capacity to commit a crime. And don't talk to me of gun control or I'll talk of a curfew on men in case they rape during the hours of darkness. There's a matter of degree on how far authority can go with regard to creating a crime to prevent a different crime.

wildman
24-10-2013, 12:37
Whilst travellers and Gypsies ignore the "rules and laws", and just park where they like with apparent impunity, the laws laid down to "deter" such actions are vigerously followed up in the case of motorhomers. So we suffer. time for this country to come into the 21st century. I wonder when sorry not sleeping but getting my leg over all night proves to be a winning defence:D


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