PDA

View Full Version : What Motorhome ? no such thing exists?



channa
06-11-2013, 13:57
I wont share the location at the moment for obvious reasons, but acquired a ticket for parking the "wrong" class of vehicle in a council run on road parking location recently.

The fact that the machine was not illuminated,(ticket was purchased) so therefore couldnt be read is a mitigation that for the time being ignore. as are other factors pregnant lady toilet stop anpr cameras would vouch miutes of a stop despite spending for an hour and a half stay , the vehicle not actually being used as a "motor Caravan"

After the issue of ticket I took a photo with flash and it states no Motorhomes or caravans......... well it isnt a caravan, and my understanding is that the term motorhome is incorrect and has no legal entity, indeed the v5 states motor caravan ..

is this sufficient to dig heels in and contest/ appeal the ticket.?

What do you think? anyone tried it to p[ush the point ?

regards

Channa

n brown
06-11-2013, 14:10
always appeal if you have the time and even a slight argument.but go in person if poss

whitevanwoman
06-11-2013, 14:56
Worth a try, with the other mitigating circumstances kept up your sleeve for the moment but able to fall back on if necessary.

I've found it's worth adding little phrases such as "I have been advised... ", "currently considering further action...", "researching case law for past judgements..." whilst being vague about who has advised you and what they have said, to give the impression that you are getting legal advice from someone who knows what they are on about.

It might be worth putting in a freedom of information request with regards to what other vehicles have received the same penalty for the same reason as you in the past 12 or 24 months. You might find that the only other vehicles which have been ticketed are very obviously coachbuilt motorhomes which could give you an argument that you are obviously not the same as them. Might also be worth spendiing a few hours on OP to see if other vehicles same as yours are equally penalised, and if not then you can claim that the ruling is unenforceable or can only be enforced at certain times, eg office hours, so that anyone using the car park during that time has an unfair disadvantage and is therefore discriminated. Not sure how strong an argument this would be, but added to the other arguments, it may strengthen your case.

Also it depends what the vehicle is registered as with DVLC - if it's not registered as a motor caravan, then you have a strong case. (Edit - sorry, just reread your OP and noticed that it is reg as motor caravan, missed it on first reading)

Just my thoughts based on my personal limited knowledge of council parking regs, am not an expert nor hugely knowledgable. Islandman or MaureenandTom may be able to give useful advice as they seem pretty clued up on traffic regs, particularly parking.

PS. Keep a good paper trail of all communications eg notes of phone calls with dates, times and and names, copies of letters etc.

ecobob
06-11-2013, 15:52
Appeal, the first time they may just write back and say they won't budge but you can then play them at their own game and re-appeal the decision formally - the won't like this as it's a lot of work and costs them as it goes to a pannel. Most likely they will drop it if you stand your ground. Good Luck.

theredman
06-11-2013, 22:35
Post your question on the following forum: forums.pepipoo.com . There are a host of expert helpers who will guide you through the process of appeal correctly. Even just taking the time to read through previous threads will help.

wildman
07-11-2013, 09:27
Just playing devils advocate here . If you have a self contained motor caravan why do you so desperately need to use the councils facilities. To empty the cassette maybe, is that actually officially allowed given it is not an elsan point.

channa
07-11-2013, 10:03
Just playing devils advocate here . If you have a self contained motor caravan why do you so desperately need to use the councils facilities. To empty the cassette maybe, is that actually officially allowed given it is not an elsan point. I wasnt using the councils toilet facilities, The van was being used for all intents as a car , not a motor caravan fwiw no more than a means of transport to and from A-B and back again, indeed a lot of the vans contents considering I was living full time in it are now in the pub if that makes sense. ( the toilet area of the van is currently unusable)
regards
Channa

John Thompson
07-11-2013, 10:29
I have PMd you on this and the various definitions of a Motor Car.

Most councils state in their TROs that they use the definitions in the Road Traffic Act of 1984 and 1988. The EU changed these definitions in 2007 and 2009 and these are now in use by DVLA the old Motor Car and Heavy Motor Car etc. no longer apply but are still used by local authorities. A caravan I was informed is a trailer according to the 1984 & 1988 Acts

As Channa says there is no such thing as a Motorhome, Caravette or campervan defined in law. Motor Caravan is defined in the 2007/9 EU legislation

whitevanwoman
07-11-2013, 10:37
It might be worth asking the council what parking provision there is for motor caravans when not being used as a "caravan" ie as a form of transport, and where you could have legally parked the vehicle in order to do what you needed to do, ie for pregnant woman to use toilet. If they do not provide any specific parking for motorcaravans during "non sleeping hours" and all their car parks do not allow parking of motor caravans, then they are discriminating against a whole class of road tax payers, and I would think that this would be worth pursuing.

John Thompson
07-11-2013, 10:59
It might be worth asking the council what parking provision there is for motor caravans when not being used as a "caravan" ie as a form of transport, and where you could have legally parked the vehicle in order to do what you needed to do, ie for pregnant woman to use toilet. If they do not provide any specific parking for motorcaravans during "non sleeping hours" and all their car parks do not allow parking of motor caravans, then they are discriminating against a whole class of road tax payers, and I would think that this would be worth pursuing.

The stock reply I have received form most councils while making FOI requests about Motorhome Parking is that Motor Caravans can park at caravan sites. They do not consider them as a vehicle used to transport passengers to shop or visit attractions.

Many authorities do not have any car parks where motor caravans/high adapted disabled persons vehicles can park. One authority went so far as to say an adapted Motorhome displaying a blue badge would be removed as being an inappropriate vehicle. As far as they were concerned disabled badges were only to be used in cars.

Discrimination is ripe as far as Motor Caravan users are concerned.

John Thompson
08-11-2013, 09:48
Post in wrong place

spigot
08-11-2013, 10:27
As others on here have suggested, write to the council asking what they are charging you with.

But end the letter with "Before I instruct solicitors"

This has worked for me on a couple of occasions.

John Thompson
08-11-2013, 14:06
According to the DVLA/EU classification the vehicle is a 4 or more wheeled, passenger carrying vehicle, with no more than 8 passenger seats (category M1) the same as any other passenger car.

The fact that it has a "special body" should be of no importance.

Captain Biggles
19-11-2013, 00:10
One of our other Wild Campers stated : "....But if the terms and conditions were not clearly displayed at the time of purchase of the ticket, then the terms are void....", which of course is perfectly true, but what is also true in 'Contract Law', is that the 'Terms and Conditions' must be displayed at the point of purchase. The 'point of purchase' being at the barrier if it is a barriered car park, or at the 'Pay & Display' Pay Point if it is a 'Pay & Display' Car Park.

Good Luck!

Captain Biggles :plane:

channa
19-11-2013, 14:34
Well the appeal is lodged, and irrespective of outcome I shall upon conclusion share the tale

Channa

Smaug
19-11-2013, 14:47
Well the appeal is lodged, and irrespective of outcome I shall upon conclusion share the tale

Channa

Good luck, will there be a collection? :cool1:

Alf
19-11-2013, 15:05
Hi reply and state the motor caravan is your sole means of transport so as such it is your car on a daily basis I cannot see how they can object to that as a last resort say they are infringing your Human Rights

Maybe one for Island Man to pursue!!

Alf

Seannachie
19-11-2013, 16:47
Hi reply and state the motor caravan is your sole means of transport so as such it is your car on a daily basis I cannot see how they can object to that as a last resort say they are infringing your Human Rights

Maybe one for Island Man to pursue!!

Alf

Interesting point and perhaps worth making a case.

I say this particularly as our local authority (Kent CC) stopped householders with vehicles over 1.8 metres high visiting the council dump & recycling centre to dump their household waste until it was pointed out to them that many householders owned camper-vans or motorhomes which exceeded that hight and that they could not legally be discriminated against. The council then had the ill-grace to allow such vehicles but only if the householder first applied for an exemption and stated that the vehicle in question was their only means of transport. In return, the householder then received a book of 12 tickets - which were valid for 1 year - with their name and vehicle registration number on each ticket. Some poor devil with a PVC (it was a professionally named and badged conversion too) wrote in MMM a couple of months back complaining that they had turned up at one of Kent's dumps without realising that they needed these tickets; his vehicle was weighed and he was charged 16.00 odds for dumping some of his household rubbish, which is a supposedly a free 'service' for householders dumping their own household rubbish!

Seannachie
20-11-2013, 07:27
But that issue has been addressed by another silly piece of legislation brought in by the government of the day (Labour). It is now legally up to the householder to check that anyone commercial they employ to remove their waste or other rubbish has the proper licences or face a swingeing fine if they don't - from memory 1,000. Can the average householder imagine asking the average rubbish removal/house-clearance guy to show them his licence? And would they know that whatever they were shown was genuine or a piece of art done by Photoshop or the like? And what is genuine anyway? One guy said to me, 'I don't carry the original in my cab as it's too valuable, but I have a photocopy of it'.

With apologies for the diversion from the original point of the post, but I do think that there may be something the OP can use here: if his motorhome is his only vehicle available for everyday use then he could claim that his council is unfairly discriminating against him contrary to Section 14 of the Human Rights Act 1998 so he shouldn't have to pay the fine as it's imposition is illegal.

Tbear
20-11-2013, 08:15
A word of caution. If you claim that its your only vehicle? Make sure you are insured as such, not just leisure.

Richard

Sharon the Cat
20-11-2013, 08:34
Hereford & Worcester issue permits for vans, trailers etc. They have just changed this so that you are only allowed 12 permits per year. Why, if it is household waste when you can visit as many times as you like in a car??

But I did notice this on the site "Caravanettes, as designed by the manufacturer" do not require permits.

channa
25-01-2014, 12:06
I wont share the location at the moment for obvious reasons, but acquired a ticket for parking the "wrong" class of vehicle in a council run on road parking location recently.

The fact that the machine was not illuminated,(ticket was purchased) so therefore couldnt be read is a mitigation that for the time being ignore. as are other factors pregnant lady toilet stop anpr cameras would vouch miutes of a stop despite spending for an hour and a half stay , the vehicle not actually being used as a "motor Caravan"

After the issue of ticket I took a photo with flash and it states no Motorhomes or caravans......... well it isnt a caravan, and my understanding is that the term motorhome is incorrect and has no legal entity, indeed the v5 states motor caravan ..

is this sufficient to dig heels in and contest/ appeal the ticket.?

What do you think? anyone tried it to p[ush the point ?

regards

Channa

Ok a quick update now things are resolved, the offending authority was Blackpool, my response to them was as follows.


Firstly on our arrival, roadside signage indicates the location of cash machines, and the hours applicable.

The time was 17 : 16, it was dark the machines are not illuminated therefore any terms and conditions were

unreadable furthermore if the terms and conditions are not clearly displayed at the time of purchase then the terms

are void. It was obviously night terms and conditions MUST be clearly displayed. Any conditions printed on the

ticket itself are of no relevance relating in effect conditions subsequent', not 'precedent'.I entered a contact

with limited information in "utmost good faith".

Having left the bay, toured the lights we stopped again adjacent to the central pier for my pregnant partner to

visit the arcade and use the toilets at which time we were issued with the PCN. At this stage using a mobile phone

with camera and flash, I took a photo of the machine and assume that the PCN was issued because the attendant has

been instructed that it was a "motorhome"

I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009 adopted by all states in

2012,And currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOt purposes etc .That the term "motorhome" enjoys no legal

definition, I do not own a "motorhome" but a motor caravan which is clearly stated on my registration document, the

term on your signage therefore is a generic term not a legal one and I believe renders the PCN void.

The correct classification of M1 within the current legislation I have quoted in effect irrefutably complies with

the terms on your parking machine,indeed the vehicle was being used as a vehicle constructed for the carriage of

passengers,any"special " adaptation or body is of no relevance

I trust that having consulted your legal team with the evidence I have quoted,the PCN will be revoked with

immediate effect and the council will consider the points outlined if they wish to discriminate certain types of

vehicle.

Should you wish to enter into paperwork correspondence, please address to (address removed)


I shall be working here for the foreseeable future, and seldom have opportunity to collect mail from my home

address.

Kind regards

Andrew Chance[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


The response I received back is as follows


I refer to your letter received,in connection with the above notice.

In view of the circumstances you describe and after careful consideration of this case I have arranged for the notice to be cancelled and no further action will be taken.

I would advise you this does not set a precedent for any future notices issued to your vehicle

yours faithfully

pp P Goodwin ?

for Head of Parking Services.


I still believe that their signage is unenforceable with the terminology used, be interesting to see if anything changes

Channa

Alf
25-01-2014, 13:10
Well done Channa and thanks for naming the council concerned

Alf

vespalien
25-01-2014, 14:11
Well done Channa, and thanks for letting us know the outcome. That could be really useful for many others.

Fazerloz
25-01-2014, 14:32
Signage is still the same I was there the other week I didn't park there.

Fazerloz
25-01-2014, 14:34
Good letter though Channa.

vwalan
25-01-2014, 15:21
same rules apply throughout the eu, weight or length /height are the only get outs for them .
every council in uk should know this , they do in spain etc but still issue tickets . some just pay . most do complain and get it dropped .
but nice one keep up the good work.
we do have to keep watching the ones that watch us.

Sky
25-01-2014, 15:52
Well done Andrew - most impressed to see someone else standing up to these parking fascists. :)

I had one back in the summer on the Isle of Wight. It was on a Sunday and I was one of three vehicles in the 'free parking for 90 minutes' car park (this left around 100 empty spaces). I parked for less than ten minutes while I went to a cashpoint and had a ticket when I got back.

I ignored it to start with, but then received a letter with a photograph of the back of my van overhanging a flower bed. This was apparently their justification. Needless to say, when I argued and sent in my pictures of the almost empty car park with my van parked in it I never received an argument. They didn't even bother writing back to me. :)

Tbear
25-01-2014, 16:22
Hi Channa,

Nice One! Well done!

Richard


CLICK HERE TO REMOVE THESE ADVERTS