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Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 11:09
I'm in the process of installing the water system on my van. This consists of a Fiamma 70 litre tank coupled with a Shurflo 30 PSI pump to supply the kitchen and bathroom.

On my previous van, I was always annoyed by the spluttering taps, which often meant that I ended up wearing the water rather than it's intended use!

So, I have decided to fit an accumulator/expansion tank. This is the model I have gone for;

Fiamma A20 Universal Expansion Tank (http://www.jacksonsleisure.com/caravan-and-camping/water-plumbing/water-pumps/fiamma-a20-universal-expansion-tank/)

This is charged at 13 PSI but I am going to top it up to 15 PSI as the optimum charge is 50% of that of the pump. This can be done on any compressor.

I am also adding a filter/strainer;

Shurflo Caravan Motorhome Water Strainer Filter (http://www.jacksonsleisure.com/caravan-motorhome/water-plumbing/water-pumps/shurflo-caravan-motorhome-water-strainer-filter/)

Apparently, this combined system should save water, save wear and tear on the pump and boiler and save electricity as well as getting rid of the problem of the taps spluttering and pulsing and should give a nice even flow of water.

The accumulator tank arrived yesterday and is only about the size of the pump, so shouldn't take up too much room.

Anybody else tried this approach?

Alf
04-03-2017, 11:30
In every van we have had I always fitted a accumulator present van only has a cold tap and limited space as of yet I have had no reason to fit it, I have always moved,It on from van to van so it's been a cheap accessory, they do work very well. I think a Pozzani water filter with dedicated drinking tap a good idea these are cheap to buy and replacement filters reasonably priced.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 11:35
In every van we have had I always fitted a accumulator present van only has a cold tap and limited space as of yet I have had no reason to fit it, I have always moved,It on from van to van so it's been a cheap accessory, they do work very well. I think a Pozzani water filter with dedicated drinking tap a good idea these are cheap to buy and replacement filters reasonably priced.

Thanks Alf.

I'm quite interested in the Pozzani, I will look into it.

Byronic
04-03-2017, 11:43
I have the Fiamma expansion tank in my wasser system, in theory it should of course make a difference, but in practice and in my case it didn't. I just left it in place (looks nice!) and let it run flat.
When you pressurise the Fiamma tank make certain you don't accidently exceed the recommended max. for any appliance in your system most obvious being the water heater, as this may well have a max. of less than 15psi. A bike pump is better than using a compressor IMO.
Some water pumps exceed the maximum pressure recommended by w/heater manufacturers.

Alf
04-03-2017, 11:45
We have always used the water in all our vans for drinking water we tried nature pure but the filters are so expensive the Pozzani included a dedicated tap so we fitted this and just filtered the drinking water so the filters last far longer. When we bought ours their were a range of 20 or so taps to choose from. I may have a spare tap you could have I will look this weekend.

Alf



Thanks Alf.

I'm quite interested in the Pozzani, I will look into it.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 11:51
I have the Fiamma expansion tank in my wasser system, in theory it should of course make a difference, but in practice and in my case it didn't. I just left it in place (looks nice!) and let it run flat.
When you pressurise the Fiamma tank make certain you don't accidently exceed the recommended max. for any appliance in your system most obvious being the water heater, as this may well have a max. of less than 15psi. A bike pump is better than using a compressor IMO.
Some water pumps exceed the maximum pressure recommended by w/heater manufacturers.

Good point.

I have the Propex Malaga boiler which is rated to 1.9 bar which equates to 27.5 PSI.

Maybe I should have gone for the 20 PSI pump!

Edina
04-03-2017, 12:21
Same system I've used on boats; stops the short-cycling and, supposedly, is good for the pump.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 12:27
Same system I've used on boats; stops the short-cycling and, supposedly, is good for the pump.

I'm a bit worried about the pump pressure now Chris.

As my boiler is rated to 27.5 PSI and the pump at 30 PSI, will the accumulator reduce this?

Edina
04-03-2017, 12:53
I'm a bit worried about the pump pressure now Chris.

As my boiler is rated to 27.5 PSI and the pump at 30 PSI, will the accumulator reduce this?

There is a pressure cut off switch on the end of the pump, you should be able to reduce the pressure with this. Probably have to google or youtube the model for the exact way to do it.

ps, I've got a surflow pump in my shed if you want it as a spare.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 12:59
There is a pressure cut off switch on the end of the pump, you should be able to reduce the pressure with this. Probably have to google or youtube the model for the exact way to do it.

ps, I've got a surflow pump in my shed if you want it as a spare.

Thanks Chris.

The adjuster says 'Adjusts shut off only, does not change flow or operating pressure'. - most confusing.

I think I will just send it back and exchange for the 20 PSI which Propex say is ok in their manual.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 13:12
The pump I have is actually rated at 7L per minute, so I wasn't worried about emptying the tank (13.5L), I tend to not run the water flat out anyway.

Yours is a submersible as opposed to a pressurised system, so I presume you have microswitches on the taps? I didn't want to go that way, so my system relies on the tap opening and reducing the pressure and operating a microswitch on the pump.

Looking again at the manual online, and I will probably go for a 16 PSI pump as 20 is right on the limit.

EDIT; I see what you mean about the Whale pressure switch now, rather than the tap m/switches!

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 13:37
I can't check that as I no longer have that van, but I have had the problem previously on boats.

I just went for the accumulator as it was fairly cheap (I paid 20) and an easy fit. If I get no spluttering from the taps, I guess I will never know whether it was down to the accumulator or not!

However, my next question is, if I run the pipework from the water tank to pump, then to the accumulator (instead of to the accumulator first) , will this change the output to 15PSI to the boiler?

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 13:42
I can't check that as I no longer have that van, but I have had the problem previously on boats.

I just went for the accumulator as it was fairly cheap (I paid 20) and an easy fit. If I get no spluttering from the taps, I guess I will never know whether it was down to the accumulator or not!

However, my next question is, if I run the pipework from the water tank to pump, then to the accumulator (instead of to the accumulator first) , will this change the output to 15PSI to the boiler?

........i'm guessing that would make the pump run permanently!!

Alf
04-03-2017, 13:47
The tank to the pump and then on to the taps water heater etc, have a tee on the cold after the pump and feed the accumulator from there.

Alf



........i'm guessing that would make the pump run permanently!!

Byronic
04-03-2017, 13:50
Good point.

I have the Propex Malaga boiler which is rated to 1.9 bar which equates to 27.5 PSI.

Maybe I should have gone for the 20 PSI pump!

You obviously have their latest model, the 5E?. Because previous models were rated @ only 13 PSI, less than 1bar! It was difficult to find a pump at this rating but I managed to get a 16 PSI Shureflow which I believe is no longer manufactured. Minimum is now 20 PSI which is why I suspect Propex have had to raise their specs.
It's a good idea to check the flue, in the past the steel sheet metal was folded at corners, and no solder or sealant to stop rainwater gradually seeping past and trickling down the interior face of the van wall! I could relate a sorry tale when I pointed this out to Propex.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 13:58
You obviously have their latest model, the 5E?. Because previous models were rated @ only 13 PSI, less than 1bar! It was difficult to find a pump at this rating but I managed to get a 16 PSI Shureflow which I believe is no longer manufactured. Minimum is now 20 PSI which is why I suspect Propex have had to raise their specs.
It's a good idea to check the flue, in the past the steel sheet metal was folded at corners, and no solder or sealant to stop rainwater gradually seeping past and trickling down the interior face of the van wall! I could relate a sorry tale when I pointed this out to Propex.

Yes it's the 5E.

I will check the plate, thanks.

Byronic
04-03-2017, 13:59
One downside of submersibles is that eventually water will get past the seal and into the motor. Cheap enough to carry a spare I suppose and as long as the thing is readily accessible.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 14:57
............................ for any appliance in your system most obvious being the water heater, as this may well have a max. of less than 15psi. A bike pump is better than using a compressor IMO.
Some water pumps exceed the maximum pressure recommended by w/heater manufacturers.

Thanks for the tip by the way. I hadn't waded through the manual yet, and could well have missed this. (I had a 32 PSI pump on my last van so thought surely a 30 would be ok!)

I owe you one!

Byronic
04-03-2017, 16:16
Thanks for the tip by the way. I hadn't waded through the manual yet, and could well have missed this. (I had a 32 PSI pump on my last van so thought surely a 30 would be ok!)

I owe you one!

I don't want this to sound as if this was from a harbinger of doom, and it may only ever have applied to the older superceded models, but the Malaga w/heater was/is made from 2 thin wall aluminium castings. These can be porous as I unfortunately found out! Give the casing a good check with dry paper tissue, best of course if you could fill it, pressurise and test it before installing.
It's a weird heater, the burner only heats the water via the vertical lightly finned end wall and this is where the porosity occurred in my heater.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 16:28
I don't want this to sound as if this was from a harbinger of doom, and it may only apply to the older superceded models, but the Malaga heater was/is made from 2 thin wall aluminium castings. These can be porous as I unfortunately found out! Give the casing a good check with dry paper tissue, best of course if you could fill it, pressurise and test it before installing.
It's a weird heater, the burner only heats the water via the end vertical lightly finned end wall and this is where the porosity occurred in my heater

It's half installed now, just waiting for the gas fitter to connect it.

It will get some hammer this year, so I will keep an eye on it. I've installed all of the main systems, (water tank/pump/boiler/heating) in the 'boot' under the double bed at the back of the van and all are easily accessible and keepaneyeonable, I've also lined the back with rubber matting, so any seepage shouldn't get to far before it is spotted. If it does fail, I will see how good the warranty is. Otherwise, I will just put it down to experience and buy something else.

Shame really, I went for the Malaga for it's larger capacity, but we live and learn!

n brown
04-03-2017, 16:34
i filled a malaga with a hosepipe to test it and split the casing - so get the pressure right ! [don't worry Rob, they last for years !]

Edina
04-03-2017, 17:06
Shurflo parts kits are available through most chandlers and they are easy to refurb.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 17:42
Shurflo parts kits are available through most chandlers and they are easy to refurb.

...and you can run them dry without damage!

Edina
04-03-2017, 17:45
Only downside is they can be a tad noisy, if you don't get them mounted properly.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 17:47
Only downside is they can be a tad noisy, if you don't get them mounted properly.

That's ok Chris, mine's going under the.........Doh!

Byronic
04-03-2017, 19:16
No seal on the Shurflo pumps just a one piece diaphragm that creates pressure by an eccentric oscillation action that distorts the diaphragm.Just noticed your #25 post! Malaga is of course the w/heater Shurflo the Yankee pump.

Livotlout
04-03-2017, 19:28
Hi Rob,

We have a 30 psi Shurflow, far too much pressure, rips through hot water whilst showering.

Alec

Byronic
04-03-2017, 19:32
It's half installed now, just waiting for the gas fitter to connect it.

It will get some hammer this year, so I will keep an eye on it. I've installed all of the main systems, (water tank/pump/boiler/heating) in the 'boot' under the double bed at the back of the van and all are easily accessible and keepaneyeonable, I've also lined the back with rubber matting, so any seepage shouldn't get to far before it is spotted. If it does fail, I will see how good the warranty is. Otherwise, I will just put it down to experience and buy something else.

Shame really, I went for the Malaga for it's larger capacity, but we live and learn!

I'd be surprised if Propex hadn't got things right on your 5E model. They've had enough bloody upgrades and practise to have perfected the Malaga w/heater by now! I should have waited 2 decades! Mine operated perfectly in the end but only because I completely stripped it down and rebuilt it.

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 19:33
Hi Rob,

We have a 30 psi Shurflow, far too much pressure, rips through hot water whilst showering.

Alec

Turn it down Alec!

No seriously, I will change it for the 20 psi on Monday. Although they are both 7L per minute. But I believe the accumulator gives you a smoother flow with the taps only slightly open, so better for an economical shower.

Hope you and Mary aren't getting so tanned that you'll show us all up this year!

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 19:37
I'd be surprised if Propex hadn't got things right on your 5E model. They've had enough bloody upgrades and practise to have perfected the Malaga w/heater by now! I should have waited 2 decades! Mine operated perfectly in the end but only because I completely stripped it down and rebuilt it.

I was just chatting with my son about it, he's in engineering and likes rebuilding things.

He said he will have a look tomorrow and see if he can find anything that needs improving, I've told him to give it a year, then I might let him have a go at it :)

n brown
04-03-2017, 19:47
i drained my tank but forgot to turn off the shurflo pump. it was 2 or 3 days before i noticed it was still running ,no damage ! in fact i'm now reminded that i meant to put an illuminated isolating switch on it and forgot ! so many small but vital details in these self builds. i spend a lot of time encouraging people to self build, i daren't let on just how complex a job it is, nobody would ever do it !

Deleted user 21925
04-03-2017, 19:56
i drained my tank but forgot to turn off the shurflo pump. it was 2 or 3 days before i noticed it was still running ,no damage ! in fact i'm now reminded that i meant to put an illuminated isolating switch on it and forgot ! so many small but vital details in these self builds. i spend a lot of time encouraging people to self build, i daren't let on just how complex a job it is, nobody would ever do it !

I'm doing that myself Nigel, after seeing Chris's installation.

Alf
04-03-2017, 20:48
I always fit 3mmleds to the control panel at the side of the switches Red ...pump. Yellow ... accessories. Green ...lights etc.

Alf





I'm doing that myself Nigel, after seeing Chris's installation.

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 08:13
I'm giving these type clips a try after reading a recommendation;

MIKALOR Double Wire Spring Band Type Fuel Hose Clips Silicone Pipe Tube Clamp UK | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIKALOR-Double-Wire-Spring-Band-Type-Fuel-Hose-Clips-Silicone-Pipe-Tube-Clamp-UK/200963331852?_trksid=p2054502.c100227.m3827&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D20160908103841%26meid%3D70b6714cb43f43ecbb 61bbca90d00bd2%26pid%3D100227%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D13% 26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D221663442077)

I will monitor how they perform.

runnach
05-03-2017, 08:29
Rob, those types can be a mare to put on take off, have to agree with David, jubilee clips with hex head that can be tightened using nut spinner tool, as in post image.

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 08:36
The only reason I am trying these is because I read some criticism of the worm drives having a flat spot and sometimes leaking. The flat spot being where the 'worm' mechanism is.

I can't say that I have experienced such problems before, but I will give the new one's a try as I know that somebody else has used them successfully on their water system. I will probably go for brass connectors as well as opposed to the plastic ones and soften the pipe briefly in boiling water so that they mould themselves to the fittings before clamping.

If suspect, I will revert to the worm drives. (I do have a flexi drive screwdriver and a set of hex heads which will attach to it).

(Thanks to Listerdiesel for tips re fittings).

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 08:38
Rob, those types can be a mare to put on take off, have to agree with David, jubilee clips with hex head that can be tightened using nut spinner tool, as in post image.

See my post above Terry, I will give them a try as they're as cheap as chips anyway!

runnach
05-03-2017, 08:42
You mention using brass, Rob. If the case, you could possibly get away with decent quality cable ties?

n brown
05-03-2017, 08:47
i have used this knot 51377on warmed up plastic pipe, in case your last jubilee strips its little gearbox. with a decent cord, like paracord, it will do the job.
do not try this on chickens !

n brown
05-03-2017, 09:03
i've never seen the right tool for those spring clips, so i end up using pincers or water pliers, as Wint says, tricky and possibly painful in confined spaces, which of course is where they'll be ! i've uttered some really filthy words getting them off radiator hoses ! good quality s/s jubilee clips for me too . incidentally, Screwfix clips are really poor quality

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 09:04
i have used this knot 51377on warmed up plastic pipe, in case your last jubilee strips its little gearbox. with a decent cord, like paracord, it will do the job.
do not try this on chickens !

Me and my Dyslexia Nigel!

I could have sworn you wrote 'try this knot on chickens...'.

Oh well, too late now. Never mind.

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 09:08
i've never seen the right tool for those spring clips, so i end up using pincers or water pliers, as Wint says, tricky and possibly painful in confined spaces, which of course is where they'll be ! i've uttered some really filthy words getting them off radiator hoses ! good quality s/s jubilee clips for me too . incidentally, Screwfix clips are really poor quality

I must admit, I've never tried them. Luckily nearly all of my connections will be easily accessible in the 'boot'.

I do have some tiny 'G' clamps, so I could try clamping them open before sliding over the hose, but it sounds a bit of a faff.

The new clips should be arriving in the next couple of days, I will post a report, if I can type with shredded fingers!

n brown
05-03-2017, 09:10
this 51381 seems to be the tool,Flexible Long Reach Hose Clamp Pliers - 26201 - Machine Mart - Machine Mart (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/flexible-long-reach-hose-clamp-pliers/?da=1&TC=GS-040816201&gclid=CI3L1pOPv9ICFU5uGwodFQgPVA) looks quite clever

Deleted user 21925
05-03-2017, 09:15
this 51381 seems to be the tool,Flexible Long Reach Hose Clamp Pliers - 26201 - Machine Mart - Machine Mart (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/flexible-long-reach-hose-clamp-pliers/?da=1&TC=GS-040816201&gclid=CI3L1pOPv9ICFU5uGwodFQgPVA) looks quite clever

That looks pretty good Nigel. Unfortunately suitable for 18mm 54mm clamps and mine will be smaller.

As you say, clever though.

Dowel
05-03-2017, 14:25
I'm giving these type clips a try after reading a recommendation;
MIKALOR Double Wire Spring Band Type Hose Clips Silicone Pipe Tube Clamp

I will monitor how they perform.

Those spring wire or spring steel clips are ok for pressure and temperature. VAG use them to secure the main cooling hoses on their cars.

I had to replace a hose on my wife's car. Struggled a bit at first but ok approached at the correct angle and succeeded with just regular pliers from my tool box.

there are special tools like this which I would buy if used more often:
2 PIECE 8-1/2" HOSE CLAMP PLIER SET: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools (https://www.amazon.co.uk/PIECE-8-1-HOSE-CLAMP-PLIER/dp/B004OL147E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488725874&sr=8-1&keywords=spring+hose+clamp+pliers)

Says the jaws rotate to allow catching the ends of the clip from different angles. Not tried them so can't comment.

I always wonder about worm drive clips but encountered many and not seen any damage to hoses.

Dowel
05-03-2017, 23:53
Thanks for helpful comment David, I wouldn't want Rob's water works to spring a leak. ;)

The bottom hose on my wife's 1.9 PD engine has this, possibly made by Norma
51414

and the bottom hose on the PSA turbo diesel in our 1999 van is similar
51415

My Ford TDCi has larger hoses with worm drive clips as do many others. I am familiar with the rolled ends of pipe and how it can be quite difficult to remove the hose having spent a couple of hours underneath wrestling the pressure hose from the turbo to the intercooler on the Ford.

Rob's proposed pressure of 16psi is close enough to the pressure in most car cooling systems and his hot water delivery temperature should be much less than typical car cooling water temp of about 90C.

Norma say of their Normaclamp FBS : "A springband hose clamp with dynamic spring properties which ensure an automatic re-tensioning effect. It is particularly suitable for use with hose-spigot joints which are submitted to extreme temperature changes.
NORMA Group (http://normagroup.com/norma.nsf/res/NORMA_FBS_datasheet_en.pdf/file/NORMA_FBS_datasheet_en.pdf)

Those "two ear" clips you use on air lines are classed as low pressure on the Mikalor web site:
404: archivo o directorio no encontrado. (http://www.mikalor.com/hose-clamps-low-pressure-eng)

Their "Normal" Mini-Clip might do well for Rob's application. I suggest finding the appropriate size of whichever clip is chosen is important.

Deleted user 21925
06-03-2017, 09:10
Just a quick update.

I have now spoken to the manufacturers, (Propex). They assure me that the 30 PSI pump will do no damage to the boiler and it will function perfectly well.

The only downside would be that the pressure relief valve would occasionally weep and produce the odd drip. As I am draining this valve to the outside of the van, this won't be a problem, so rather than pay to have this pump sent back and change it, I am going to stick with it.

I realise that I only have a 'phone conversation to go on, and nothing in writing, but it's a risk I am willing to take.

Edina
06-03-2017, 09:51
The '2 eared' clips are the ones my gas fitter recommended for the rubber gas hose, instead of the worm drive clips.

Fazerloz
06-03-2017, 09:53
Just swopped the shower head for one of these to try and save a bit of water instead of turning the main mixer valve on and off when showering. It seems to do the job.

Ebay 152428955764

Deleted user 21925
06-03-2017, 09:53
I've now checked the pressure relief valve on the Malaga and it is set at 3.0 Bar (43 PSI), so I think it is unlikely to weep.

Deleted user 21925
06-03-2017, 09:58
Just swopped the shower head for one of these to try and save a bit of water instead of turning the main mixer valve on and off when showering. It seems to do the job.

Ebay 152428955764

Another member gave me something similar, but it wouldn't fit the thread on my old van's shower hose.

On my new van I am using a Thetford mixer tap/shower, do you know if this would fit? (I presume they are standard)

Byronic
06-03-2017, 09:59
Just a quick update.

I have now spoken to the manufacturers, (Propex). They assure me that the 30 PSI pump will do no damage to the boiler and it will function perfectly well.

The only downside would be that the pressure relief valve would occasionally weep and produce the odd drip. As I am draining this valve to the outside of the van, this won't be a problem, so rather than pay to have this pump sent back and change it, I am going to stick with it.

I realise that I only have a 'phone conversation to go on, and nothing in writing, but it's a risk I am willing to take.

What does the installation manual stipulate as maximum pump pressure?

Deleted user 21925
06-03-2017, 10:02
What does the installation manual stipulate as maximum pump pressure?

20 PSI. My pump is 30.

Fazerloz
06-03-2017, 10:34
Another member gave me something similar, but it wouldn't fit the thread on my old van's shower hose.

On my new van I am using a Thetford mixer tap/shower, do you know if this would fit? (I presume they are standard)

No definite answer but I would certainly think so. I bet 7 on it fitting. :cheers:

n brown
06-03-2017, 10:50
nobody nose Rob - i'll have a sniff about


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