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View Full Version : Help needed! Building landlord is trying to ban overnight parking on our pub carpark



Loobylou72
02-04-2017, 19:45
Dear Members

Please help. My husband and I are tenants of a beautiful pub in the Peak District. We welcome campers in vans to park for free overnight in our carpark and use our beautiful pub for food and drink - everyone's a winner! In fact I think several members on here have visited us.

Our landlord's who own the building are incredibly difficult and one of their latest plans is to stop us having overnight parking of campervans on our carpark. We've had a solicitors letter quoting from the 'Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960' saying that we are acting illegally by running a 'caravan site'. We are not running a caravan site, just trying to boost our business by allowing people to camp overnight in our carpark. There have never been any issues with noise or bad behaviour or anything. Everyone who has camped here has been fabulous, well behaved and left early the following morning.

Does anyone have any knowledge of camping or parking legislation, or know anything that would be any help to us as I need to respond the their solicitors by 4pm on Tuesday or they are threatening breach of contract and issuing a section 146 notice, which is effectively an eviction notice or an injunction!!

Any help would be most welcome, we have had several quotes for legal advice starting at £500 for an initial consultation and we just don't have the cash, so we are replying ourselves so if anyone could share their knowledge, there's a pint or two in it for you!

Thanks

Lou

Val54
02-04-2017, 20:14
Hi Lou,
I take it that it has only been occasional use for motorhome parking and that you are not registered with any of the organisations such as the Caravan Club who are able to issue a site licence for up to 5 caravans without needing planning permission.
If the above assumptions are right then your landlord is correct only if you have had more than one motorhome overnighting at the same time and on more than 28 nights in any one year. The Caravan Site Act requires all caravan sites to have a site licence.
Schedule 1 of the Act lists the exemptions, basically you do not need a site licence if there is never more than one motorhome and that motorhomes do not overnight for more than 28 days in any calendar year. In planning terms it's known as the "28 day rule". Exceed these limits and your landlord is correct.
You could write and confirm to the landlords solicitor that you have not exceeded these limits and will ensure that you bear them in mind when allowing customers to park overnight.
Dave

GWAYGWAY
02-04-2017, 20:15
Apply to the council under the order that allows CLs,, up to 5, and if you need a sponsoring body I am sure you might find one of the many authorised clubs to back you, Ask Phil he might know of one that could do it they do not need to be the CC or CCC to do it.
I feel that somebody MUST have complained for them to even know that there has been a parked vehicle there. After all If a Driver has imbibed to much alcohol they must leave the vehicle there and if they are living in it then that is the answer.

Roger Haworth
02-04-2017, 20:20
I'm very sorry indeed to hear about the way in which you are being dealt with by your landlord. Please rest assured - you are not running a caravan site or anything of the kind!

Section 146 relates to you as a tenant breaking a covenant of your lease - for example if it said in your lease that you must not allow people to park their camper vans in your car park overnight and you did allow this then your landlord would have a genuine grievance. I suspect however that there is nothing of this kind in your tenancy agreement

I don't know whether your pub is in the Peak District National Park or not, however if it is I suspect that the National Park Authority may have been putting pressure on your landlord to act in the way s/he is. National Parks for some unknown reason have collectively decided to make life difficult for camper vanners. I live in Dartmoor National Park which has a byelaw prohibiting people from sleeping in vehicles overnight on "access land" within the Park.

The other possibility is that your landlord has come under pressure from local campsite owners who (misguidedly in my view) think that if people weren't staying over in your car park they would be paying £25 a night to stay in a local camp site.

Perhaps it would be possible for you to suggest to your landlord that it might well be in his or her interest for you to allow people to park overnight in your car park and that by doing so they are enhancing the profitability of your business and thus making it more likely the s/he will receive the rent on time!

trevskoda
02-04-2017, 20:39
I would take legal advice but if the letter states motorhome this is the first mistake as there is no such thing,it in fact is a motorcaravan and any good barrister will pull this out of the hat along with the above posts,
Also when you have shut up shop how do you know how has driven in and slept on the parking spaces,never mind ones you have taken keys of to stop them drink driving,good luck.

Admin
02-04-2017, 20:41
Hi,

My best advice would be to stop allowing motorhomes at the pub. Contact your landlord and say that no motorhomes will be staying there anymore.
I know that this is not great for your business, but at least you will still have it.

Admin

Val54
02-04-2017, 20:41
"Perhaps it would be possible for you to explain to your landlord that it is perfectly legal for you to allow people to park overnight in your car park and that by doing so they are enhancing the profitability of your business and thus making it more likely the s/he will receive the rent on time!"

Sorry Roger that is not legally correct. With certain exceptions it is possible to use land for any purpose for up to 28 days in one calendar year without requiring planning permission. The Caravan Site Act further qualifies this by stipulating that it can only be one Caravan/motorhome at a time, exceed that limit or the number of occasions (28 days) and a site licence is required. It sounds harsh but that is the way the legislation works. Of course Lou can apply for exemption through one of the certified organisations and that could form part of the response to the solicitors, in the meantime Lou may be in breach of contract if that states that the tenant must comply with all relevant legislation.
Dave

witzend
02-04-2017, 21:02
We welcome campers in vans to park for free overnight in our carpark and use our beautiful pub for food and drink


We welcome people to park for free overnight in our car park after using our pub for food and drink.

Maybe better than mentioning Camping

Roger Haworth
02-04-2017, 21:03
Thank you Val54 for your extremely helpful comment regarding my post earlier in this thread. I have amended the post accordingly.

Pauljenny
02-04-2017, 21:17
Do your landlords own other pubs?
If so tell us who they are.
We could all contact them and let them know that we will be boycotting every pub in their possession, because we refuse to patronise pubs that are motorhome unfriendly/ hostile.
Get something going on other sites and Facebook,too.

jeanette
02-04-2017, 22:39
How s it that they can't see past their noses where Motorhomes are concerned,it is bringing money into the business and it would be welcome I would have thought when you see how many pubs are closing every week!

maja07
02-04-2017, 22:57
Hi, the ********* book features "5 allocated bays for MHs" at many of their pub listings.... so one suspects, as mentioned, it's a landlord issue and pressure on him/her from nearby sites ? Maja

st3v3
03-04-2017, 06:44
How long have they been complaining about this? To mention eviction that quickly almost seems like they are looking for a reason to have you out.

John Thompson
03-04-2017, 08:25
Can your premises be classed as a Dwelling House? The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 states.

2. No site licence shall be required for the use of land as a
caravan site in any of the circumstances specified in the First
Schedule to this Act and that Schedule shall have effect
accordingly.

This is the wording of FIRST SCHEDULE -
CASES WHERE CARAVAN SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED

Use within curtilage of a dwelling house
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a
caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a
dwelling house within the curtilage of which the land is situated.
Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights

(The word incidental means that they use the dwelling house of some purpose such as eating. Can a Public House be classified as a dwelling House or is it Business Premises? )

2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights—
(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the
purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining
land in the same occupation, and
(b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on
which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number
of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that
land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.

You would need your landlords approval to use sections 4, 5 and 6 of SCHEDULE ONE.

4. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of
land which is occupied by an organisation which holds for the time
being a certificate of exemption granted under paragraph 12 of
this Schedule (hereinafter referred to as an exempted organisation)
if the use is for purposes of recreation and is under the supervision
of the organisation.

Sites approved by exempted organisations
5.—(l) Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule,
a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of
land as respects which there is in force a certificate issued under
this paragraph by an exempted organisation if not more than five
caravans are at the time stationed for the purposes of human
habitation on the land to which the certificate relates.
(2) For the purposes of this paragraph an exempted organisation
may issue as respects any land a certificate stating that the land
has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its
members for the purposes of recreation.
(3) The certificate shall be issued to the occupier of the land to
which it relates, and the organisation shall send particulars to the
Minister of all certificates issued by the organisation under this
paragraph.
(4) A certificate issued by an exempted organisation under this
paragraph shall specify the date on which it is to come into force
and the period for which it is to continue in force, being a period
not exceeding one year.

Meetings organised by exempted organisations
6. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site
if the use is under the supervision of an exempted organisation and
is in pursuance of arrangements made by that organisation for a
meeting for its members lasting not more than five days.

********* and other organisations that are promoting overnight stops could lead owners/occupiers into the situation you have found yourself as they are not exempted organisations under the Act. This group is an exempted organisation.

My advice is the same as Phil Cease allowing overnight (occupied) parking until the issues are resolved. The key wording in the ACT is "stationed for the
purposes of human habitation"

Question to Phil is para 5 available?

John Thompson
03-04-2017, 08:28
Double Pose

Val54
03-04-2017, 09:30
Just to be clear, in planning terms a public house is not a dwelling house and does not qualify for that exemption.
Dave

Admin
03-04-2017, 11:18
Question to Phil is para 5 available?

It maybe in the future.


Para 5 is only for members of the exempt org, if I read the wording correctly.

John Thompson
04-04-2017, 06:54
It maybe in the future.


Para 5 is only for members of the exempt org, if I read the wording correctly.

That was what the big clubs wanted Phil and they put it about that they were only for their members. The situation as eventually sorted out a couple of years ago, "it is an agreement between the exempted organisation and the site operator" as to who can use the exempted site. The Motor Caravanners' Club has always allowed non members to use their CLs

Q17 of the Guidance

Paragraph 5 – exempted organisations issue certificates stating that a site has been approved for the use of its members. However, non-members may also use the site, unless there is an agreement between the site owner and the organisation that restricts its use to members only;

StevenJ
04-04-2017, 09:28
Somehow I feel you should be speaking to your landlord on a less formal basis and not quoting rules and regulations , a sure fire way to pi55 them off and cement their desire to remove you from the premises for being a trouble maker.

Although there is some sound advice being offered I would be considering Admins advice to ensure you still have a business to run and a roof over your heads.

barryd
04-04-2017, 09:48
Somehow I feel you should be speaking to your landlord on a less formal basis and not quoting rules and regulations , a sure fire way to pi55 them off and cement their desire to remove you from the premises for being a trouble maker.

Although there is some sound advice being offered I would be considering Admins advice to ensure you still have a business to run and a roof over your heads.

Sounds sensible as does the mention of Brit Stops. Why is the landlord so objectionable and why has it gone legal? If you can talk amicably with the Landlord why not speak to Steve at ********* and find out more and show the landlord how it works?

As you say win win so surely its a win win for them as well. It would at least show you are going about it in some kind of organised way.

channa
04-04-2017, 11:53
I have to agree with Phil here cease forthwith.

The Caravan Control and Development act is only one of the issues you face in this situation. I suspect going against what others have said this piece of legislation is not the issue.

Your Pub will have a premises licence , the one that states opening hours , time live recorded music can be played for etc. I suspect there is perhaps something within this that has upset the landlord.

Often the Local Authority licence will stipulate any special terms and conditions the obvious one in town centre pubs for example a fully functioning cctv system.

I suspect a half decent solicitor for your landlord would argue that by allowing stop overs you are continuing to trade outside hours.Note no money nor alcohol needs to be retailed, Invitation to treat the following day is classed as trading. Legally I believe could be argued as a breach.

The other point and one you need to be mindful of is that one of you or possibly a person designated by the landlord will be a designated Premises supervisor under the Licensing Act of 2003.

Part of the Act as you are no doubt aware, Is that you mustn't conduct yourself in such a manner that breaches the cornerstones of "Public safety and preventing public nuisance" and "prevention of crime and disorder"... The definitions are very much an open book to interpretation, The LA act 2003 is in a lot of ways very non prescriptive and poorly thought out legislation.

We talk a lot about minority behaviour on here, But one transgression you will have failed to comply with licensing objectives.

Possibly all this is not what you want to hear, but I suspect is more relevant than the caravan control and development act.

If you get stuck, feel free to drop a pm, I can put you in contact with someone who specialises in licensing law.

Good luck running pubs is a tough game nowadays, and sadly entrepreneurial spirit can be easily stifled and it doesn't take a lot to fall foul of legislation and its non prescriptive nature

Channa

Alf
04-04-2017, 12:36
Perhaps there is a more simple answer...... The Landlord wants them out and this is the excuse he has been waiting for.
There is always two sides to any problem.

Alf

Val54
04-04-2017, 12:37
I have to agree with Phil here cease forthwith.

The Caravan Control and Development act is only one of the issues you face in this situation. I suspect going against what others have said this piece of legislation is not the issue.

Your Pub will have a premises licence , the one that states opening hours , time live recorded music can be played for etc. I suspect there is perhaps something within this that has upset the landlord.

Often the Local Authority licence will stipulate any special terms and conditions the obvious one in town centre pubs for example a fully functioning cctv system.

I suspect a half decent solicitor for your landlord would argue that by allowing stop overs you are continuing to trade outside hours.Note no money nor alcohol needs to be retailed, Invitation to treat the following day is classed as trading. Legally I believe could be argued as a breach.

The other point and one you need to be mindful of is that one of you or possibly a person designated by the landlord will be a designated Premises supervisor under the Licensing Act of 2003.

Part of the Act as you are no doubt aware, Is that you mustn't conduct yourself in such a manner that breaches the cornerstones of "Public safety and preventing public nuisance" and "prevention of crime and disorder"... The definitions are very much an open book to interpretation, The LA act 2003 is in a lot of ways very non prescriptive and poorly thought out legislation.

We talk a lot about minority behaviour on here, But one transgression you will have failed to comply with licensing objectives.

Possibly all this is not what you want to hear, but I suspect is more relevant than the caravan control and development act.

If you get stuck, feel free to drop a pm, I can put you in contact with someone who specialises in licensing law.

Good luck running pubs is a tough game nowadays, and sadly entrepreneurial spirit can be easily stifled and it doesn't take a lot to fall foul of legislation and its non prescriptive nature

Channa

You are correct, Channa, there are loads of other bits of legislation that the Landlord could use to try for non-compliance and eviction if that is their intent. So it seems strange that they have picked on planning where proving non-compliance would need the local authority involvement to convince a magistrate that they are in non-compliance with their lease. I do wonder whether the landlord is aware of what is happening and simply does not want to get dragged into a planning enforcement case as the owner of the site.
Dave

channa
04-04-2017, 13:01
You are correct, Channa, there are loads of other bits of legislation that the Landlord could use to try for non-compliance and eviction if that is their intent. So it seems strange that they have picked on planning where proving non-compliance would need the local authority involvement to convince a magistrate that they are in non-compliance with their lease. I do wonder whether the landlord is aware of what is happening and simply does not want to get dragged into a planning enforcement case as the owner of the site.
Dave I don't think there is enough information to form an accurate opinion, I am commenting too late in the day but I would be responding to the landlords solicitors , I shall be ceasing allowing stopovers in the interim but on what grounds are they alleging terms of contracts etc are being breached.

My own thoughts it is relatively easy to fall foul of the licensing act I keep using the words non prescriptive which it is. Alf could well be right the landlords want shut. Fair to say it seems not on a tenancy at will .(TAW) So someone somewhere is going for a bigger jugular. In my experience the breweries are the biggest leeches ever and if the OP is involved with such as Admiral, Enterprise Punch etc...they are dealing with the biggest set of lowlifes ever

Channa

jennyp19
05-04-2017, 07:58
There is a guy called Philip Caley landlord of Stratton Arms maybe worth asking. Seems to know his stuff, very welcoming to motorhomes and in ********* may be worth contacting.

Exu
18-04-2017, 11:14
We live in Spain. Certainly here there is a very distinct difference between Parking and Camping. It is incorporated into Spanish Law and is also, or so I have been led to believe enshrined in European law.

Here a motorcaravan can legally PARK overnight anywhere that a a similar sized van could park. It is illegal to discriminate against a motor caravan just because it has sleeping and/or cooking facilities. You can sleep in it and cook in it and still only be PARKing.

If however, you put out and awning, tables. chairs etc, (and strictly speaking, open out your side windows) then you are CAMPING and that is a different matter.

There is a website (N332.es) run by the Guardia Civil in Torrevieja that explains all this in English. IF, as I have been told, it is European Law then that might help you, especially since the vans are only parking, not camping.

yorkslass
18-04-2017, 12:10
Any update Loobyloo?

Mike Parkinson
20-04-2017, 20:11
Perhaps there is a more simple answer...... The Landlord wants them out and this is the excuse he has been waiting for.
There is always two sides to any problem.

Alf

Or a share of the profits!


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