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Thread: Old FIAT Ducatos

  1. #21

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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazerloz View Post
    Copper does work harden and crack even when clipped at 300mm centres. Why do you think it is illegal to use in many countries. Why use copper when kunifer is so much safer. How many pages saying its unsafe to heat with the hob even when taking precautions but the same are happy to use copper when there is a better alternative, They are perfectly legal but how many use remould tyres.
    I don't think many know the line pressures involved in brake systems. General braking up to and around 800psi / 55 bar and in emergency, severe conditions 2000psi / 136 bar. I will leave copper pipe were it belongs, and that's not on vehicle brakes in my opinion.
    If supported correctly.... copper shouldn't work harden I've been using copper brake lines for 30 odd years without a problem.... I use copper pipe on a day in day out basis.... again without problem.
    I much prefer copper as you get a better flare connection than the harder Kunifer imho...

    As for remould tyres..... who is the biggest user of remould tyres???

    The transport industry....
    yup a heap of those big heavy Wagons you see trundling about remoulds.

    At the end of the day IF you prefer Kunifer then use it....im not saying there's anything wrong with it any more than there is with copper.

    BUT if you are using Kunifer then make sure you have a top drawer flaring kit as a, lot of the cheaper ones won't make a decent flare.
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  3. #23

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    That's interesting! I didn't need the whole set and am trying to keep my spend down. Thanks for the link.

    The pipes appear to be copper, though, so it shows that it is accepted. I still haven't found anyone offering pre-bent steel pipe sets, though.

    The copper pipes already in use at the front end of my Hymer are in good condition and have been there for over ten years. The copper pipes that I am replacing are clipped tightly to the rear axle beam and will suffer very little vibration and probably zero movement. The only rubber hose there is from the central tee to a rigid pipe leading to the load compensating valve, and I am replacing that with a new hose.

    There are numerous bends in the Ducato rear pipes and steel pipes would need decent bending machines to safely create the shapes. Copper will be very easy to bend to match the existing shapes. I have borrowed a flaring tool form an English friend who lives fairly close and who also has a Hymer like mine. I tried the tool on a piece of cunifer and found that it didn't produce a very good result. Copper, being softer should be much better.

    I am expecting the delivery of my copper pipe and box of fittings to arrive sometime today. They said to expect delivery before 20:00 hrs. I may not be able to complete the job today.
    David
    Central Brittany (Morbihan), France.
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  4. #24

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    I`m curious as to how much coal you have to carry to power these old Ducatos
    Hang On A Minute, I`ll Get My Hankie
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  5. #25

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    I have 50 years in the motor trade under my belt and have used Kunifer copper/alloy brake pipe with the proper flaring tools, It's slightly harder than pure copper and impervious to corrosion, i have some on my 30 year old land rover that still look brand new,
    i'm a great beleaver in fit once and forget using quality bits,
    also use top quality DOT 5.1 brake fluid to minimise water contamination inside the system, and preferably change fluid every five years minimum,
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  6. #26

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    If you want a bit more information about the. copper/ nickel brake pipe,


    http://copperalliance.org.uk/docs/li...g.pdf?sfvrsn=0
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintonian View Post
    That's interesting! I didn't need the whole set and am trying to keep my spend down. Thanks for the link.

    The pipes appear to be copper, though, so it shows that it is accepted. I still haven't found anyone offering pre-bent steel pipe sets, though.

    The copper pipes already in use at the front end of my Hymer are in good condition and have been there for over ten years. The copper pipes that I am replacing are clipped tightly to the rear axle beam and will suffer very little vibration and probably zero movement. The only rubber hose there is from the central tee to a rigid pipe leading to the load compensating valve, and I am replacing that with a new hose.
    hi
    There are numerous bends in the Ducato rear pipes and steel pipes would need decent bending machines to safely create the shapes. Copper will be very easy to bend to match the existing shapes. I have borrowed a flaring tool form an English friend who lives fairly close and who also has a Hymer like mine. I tried the tool on a piece of cunifer and found that it didn't produce a very good result. Copper, being softer should be much better.

    I am expecting the delivery of my copper pipe and box of fittings to arrive sometime today. They said to expect delivery before 20:00 hrs. I may not be able to complete the job today.



    hi
    make sure you prepare the end of the pipe properly before you flare it.
    cut with a tube cutter. file a chamfer on the outside edge. chamfer the inside
    edge as well. use a drill bit to do inside. blow pipe through with air to cear out.

  8. #28

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    There are a fair number reports that claim that one of the downsides of using copper, is that when making the flare it work hardens, this is the point of eventual failure.
    Many people claim pure copper to be suitable for brake pipe use, usually to justify not using cunifer because that takes a bit more expertise and a few more quid, yes or no?
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistericeman View Post
    If supported correctly.... copper shouldn't work hardenI've been using copper brake lines for 30 odd years without a problem.... I use copper pipe on a day in day out basis.... again without problem.
    I much prefer copper as you get a better flare connection than the harder Kunifer imho...
    made
    As for remould tyres..... who is the biggest user of remould tyres
    ???

    The transport industry....
    yup a heap of those big heavy Wagons you see trundling about remoulds.

    At the end of the day IF you prefer Kunifer then use it....im not saying there's anything wrong with it any more than there is with copper.

    BUT if you are using Kunifer then make sure you have a top drawer flaring kit as a, lot of the cheaper ones won't make a decent flare
    .
    But it does work harden on vehicles due to HF vibration that you cant see, pressure cycling, flexing on bends due to the pressures involved, and fluid temp variations around the calliper. Copper is poor at pressure cycling and this is particularly bad on brake systems when ABS kicks in. Just when people can do without any brake failure of any kind.
    As for using copper brake lines for 30 years and never having had a problem. Roughly how many have you made, and how many of them have you kept track of to know if there has ever been a problem.
    As for copper in the refrigeration industry, fine it does the job, easy to work with and has great heat transfer properties which are needed.
    Without problem, I saw the pics you post the other day. Must say it did look like ice damage from what I could see.
    Out of curiosity what are the maximum pressures you work with on a daily basis.
    I am not saying copper is not capable of containing the pressures involved that's only a matter of pipe wall thickness. Its a combination of everything else that makes it unsuitable.
    I note you chose not to answer why do you think they are illegal in other countries.
    You do not get a better connection with copper you just get one that's easier to do.
    What do you see strewn all over motorway hard shoulders. Strips of tread. The only reason the haulage industry use remoulds is due to the huge cost of new tyres against the cost of remoulds. I bet you don't use remoulds on your van because you consider them to be not as safe as new tyres.
    That is why people extol the virtues of copper brake pipes. Because its cheap and easy to do. Both flaring and bending, but that doesn't make it good.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyjanet View Post
    It's the fittings and pipes that's the problem, I have had the flange kit for some years and used to make hundreds of brake pipes for cavaliers chevettes and vivas, last year I was doing the pipes on my sons classic mini and they wouldn't sell me the parts from our local factor, I bought a roll of copper off eBay and used the old fittings, don't give up a local garage might have some unions laying around. Andy
    i replaced the pads in the front of my seat alhambra and noticed one of the pipes was not the best infact it started weeping fluid ,so off it came and i tried lots of garages ,car spares shops without any luck , so i rang the dealers ,no chance they would only replace the pipe if i took it to the garage , no chance as the pipe was off/fractured ,so they kindly offered to recover the car and do the job and deliver it back ,yea probably cost as much as the dam car is worth .i did in the end find a tyre/brake place that made the pipe up ,and dident even charge me ,mind you it was only a short one about 5 in . i now have a roll of pipe off ebay and fittings a second hand tool to make the flares ,probably will never use it but its there just in case . i also have fitted literaly miles of brake pipes over the years ,and its a simple job to make the pipes up a five year old could do it with a bit of showing . by the way the cavs were brill to do especialy those that went at the back of the tank as i remember
    in the process of hunting for another tin shed on wheels
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