End of the 3.5 T limit?

[GeoffL]

I say a YouTube video yesterday where this subject was being discussed. Allegedly, the principle argument for a 4.25 tonne limit is not EVs per se but rather that a category B licence currently allows drivers a 3.5 tonne vehicle with or without an unbraked trailer of up to 750 kg, making 4.25 tonnes GTW; and it is surely safer to have that 4.25 tonnes in a single vehicle rather than a combination. So the proposed limits for category B are a vehicle of up to 4.25 tonnes with or without a trailer of up to 750 kg and with a maximum gross train weight of 4.25 tonnes. AIUI, the EU are expected to make this a directive later this year with all member states ratifying it by the end of next year. It seems it remains unclear as to whether UK will adopt this and, if so, whether in part or in full.

 

[GeoffL]

Interesting aside from the video I linked in my previous post is an allegation that tuggers who passed their driving test after the date the rules changed in Europe (1997?) to require a separate B+E test cannot tow their trailers in Europe and Northern Ireland unless they pass what effectively is a B+E or C1+E test. I've set the following to start at the specific bit...

 

[AndyWill64]

Surely, that is discriminatory.

Yes, I'd say so. Weight limits were presumably imposed for safety reasons, so either it's safe to drive a 4.25t vehicle or it isn't. Other than controlling reasons, it makes no sense to differentiate between 750Kg of batteries or any other payload.

 

[GeoffL]

Surely, that is discriminatory.

I agree. However, playing Devil's Advocate, there might be an argument that the additional mass for BEVs is all low down, and so likely to increase stability, while for ICEVs is more likely to be evenly distributed, which might (or might not) result in raising the centre of mass and hence reducing stability (just sayin')

 

[Wully]

Welfare vehicles could be a way round this.

 

[witzend]

If there is to be a change the Ambulance service is unaware of it as locally there training new drivers for their C licences

 

[Nesting Zombie]

3.5t to 4.25t is a WHOLE lot of Donuts so I’m happy

 

[mark61]

If there is to be a change the Ambulance service is unaware of it as locally there training new drivers for their C licences

Many ambulances currently are 5 tonne.

 

[colinm]

I agree. However, playing Devil's Advocate, there might be an argument that the additional mass for BEVs is all low down, and so likely to increase stability, while for ICEVs is more likely to be evenly distributed, which might (or might not) result in raising the centre of mass and hence reducing stability (just sayin')

A car like a MG4 is very stabile compared to equivalent ICE, however that extra weight can't be helping stopping distances.

 

[Wully]

I’d love a 5 ton van and truck for work I have my C1 I’ve let my CPC lapse but easy one day course to renew that but it’s the operators licence I can’t be bothered with all the hoops a business has to jump through basically an mot every six weeks. I can usually only carry 1 pallet so frustrating having to make 2 3 runs for something that could be done in one hop with a five ton van.

 

[Caz]

I always said the trailer towing limits for new driver B licence holders from 1997 was stupid.

My nephew wasn't allowed to tow the caravan that he and his parents bought off me with his Frontera because he passed his test the day after the new Laws came in - yet he could tow it legally with his Father's Astra - a much less safe combination, in my view, although still within the Caravan Club's guidelines and the towing limits of the car.

Similarly, I had a 5 berth caravan that I towed with a Shogun. That combination also exceeded the limits for a post 1997 licence holder due to the weight of the car. I was selling the caravan and changed my towcar to a Citroen Xsara diesel which was still a suitable match but as the car was so much lighter the combination could legally be driven by a "new" driver - but towing the caravan home from storage (about 8 miles) to sell it, with the Xsara, was definitely more challenging than it had been towing all over the UK with the Shogun.

Encouraging less experienced drivers to tow caravans with lighter cars was a bad move in my view.

 

[Boris7]

It’s been dragging on for nearly 2 years now https://www.gov.uk/government/calls...ng-regime/driving-licensing-call-for-evidence
The Law allowing 4.25t on B licience for electric vehicles came in in 2018 but additional training was required, that was dropped last year.
The 2022 Gov survey strongly suggested a return to pre 1997 rules, but that has to go through a white paper and guess what the EU is trying to block it.

I sometimes I hire a 7.5 ton vehicle for work reasons

I’m sure you meant to say for “personal” reasons, as if it was for work you would need an Operators license etc

 

[QFour]

I know this is a daft question but what has it got to do with the EU

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I’d love a 5 ton van and truck for work I have my C1 I’ve let my CPC lapse but easy one day course to renew that but it’s the operators licence I can’t be bothered with all the hoops a business has to jump through basically an mot every six weeks. I can usually only carry 1 pallet so frustrating having to make 2 3 runs for something that could be done in one hop with a five ton van.

So drawing on that, you are 2-3 times more (potentially) dangerous simply because you are on the road 2-3 times longer.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

This makes our weight laws look a bit archaic.

 

[mark61]

This makes our weight laws look a bit archaic.
View attachment 129344

Nice. Like to see that reverse down Hardknott with two trailers.
I'm up for giving it a go, not my rig after all.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Nice. Like to see that reverse down Hardknott with two trailers.
I'm up for giving it a go, not my rig after all.

Some peeps just give up too easily, it'd not go up it anyway.

 

[GeoffL]

I know this is a daft question but what has it got to do with the EU

I'm not completely sure, but I'll hazard a guess. Both the UK and member states of the EU are signatories to the Vienna Convention of 1968. Within Europe, and certain other countries, this replaced the Geneva Convention of 1949, which where applicable replaced the Paris Convention of 1926. You might recognise that those dates are the labels given to International Driving Permits (IDPs) and that you might need different IDPs to drive in different countries.
Now the Vienna Convention of 1968 defines what a car is: viz, "Motor vehicles, other than those in category A, having a permissible maximum mass not exceeding 3,500 kg and not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat; or motor vehicles of category В coupled to a trailer the permissible maximum mass of which does not exceed 750 kg; or motor vehicles of category В coupled to a trailer the permissible maximum mass of which exceeds 750 kg but does not exceed the unladen mass of the motor vehicle, where the combined permissible maximum mass of the vehicles so coupled does not exceed 3,500 kg" -- iow. our current definition of 'Category B'. So if we unilaterally vary this, other signatories are at liberty to refuse to honour UK licences; either in whole or in part. For example, this is the reason why tuggers who passed their solo car test after 1997 can't tow their caravans legally in France unless they've passed a "+E" test!

 

[wildebus]

For example, this is the reason why tuggers who passed their solo car test after 1997 can't tow their caravans legally in France unless they've passed a "+E" test!

They'd be hard pushed to do that as you cannot take a "+E" test anymore to add it to your license

If someone is missing the "E" category on their license now and are concerned about it - maybe in the France scenario? - all they need to do is get their license renewed and a category "BE" will magically appear

 

[GeoffL]

They'd be hard pushed to do that as you cannot take a "+E" test anymore to add it to your license

If someone is missing the "E" category on their license now and are concerned about it - maybe in the France scenario? - all they need to do is get their license renewed and a category "BE" will magically appear

That wasn't my words, but rather what the 'experts' said on the video I cited in post #22. There, they say that tuggers who passed their test after 1997 can't legally tow an outfit > 3.5 tonnes either in Europe or in Northern Ireland. Personally, it doesn't affect me and so I haven't expended the time and energy to go down the legal rabbit hole over this.